We got some pretty good eggspurts here - so here's my question: How would you manage pine stands going forward ? Especially regarding species and stocking rate. We have some recent clearcuts that were cut this year due to damage from beetles. I'm saying we should plant Long Leaf on the sandier ridges and Slash in the bottoms that are wet. Would still plant Loblolly on other sites with heavier soils not suited for Longleaf.

Second part, what would you select for a stocking rate in each of the scenario's ? 436 or 484 on Longleaf, 544 on the others ?

A guy I know is letting his poplar grow up and not planting pines back. Said he got more for those logs than the pines he had and they got them cut before any major damage to the pines from the beetles. This guy was a logger back in the 70s and 80s.

Wish I had a couple hundred acres of white oak. JD cooperage must be paying well for them.

Sell out and put your money into something that actually makes a profit is my suggestion.

I would plant 622-726 no matter the species

I don’t know how long that will last. I don’t if all are, but some employees going to a 30 hour week.

We are planting on a wider spacing on lobs and shortleaf and introducing fire earlier. Of course my clients are more interested in wildlife than timber production. I’m NOT a forester, so I’m not recommending everyone do that. It’s definitely a consideration moving forward. Unless we get a pulp mill in NW AL nothing will change for us. Owning pine timber is an awful investment right now. There’s hundreds of thousands of acres of pulp that’s worthless at the moment and it’s just sitting there dying.

Another option is natural regeneration, which leads to more diversified products down the road.

We typically plant low 600s per acre at the most knowing that we likely won’t be able to get a first thinning done. South AL and other regions this wouldn’t be near as much of a concern

Bumping this back to the top. Got a few more questions...



Are y'all planting at 544 ? Are you planting container or bare root ?

For our foresters, what's your opinion on Longleaf ? Especially on low CEC sites. Seriously considering LL on ridgetops/hillsides and Slash in wetter bottoms due to the disease/insect mortality we're seeing in Loblolly.

We went to 10x10 (about 440) spacing on our last 4 plantings. We CAN thin or we CAN wait a while. Our first 10x10 is about 13 years old now and growing very good. This is all loblolly btw. Next opportunity I get I’ll plant popular where I can. With that said pine has been good to us.
Good luck.
I’ll never plant 6-700 tpa again.

If you are planting longleaf, you should be planting under cost-share. They will pay all costs and dictate density. That said, longleaf has a strong tendency to thin itself over the precommercial years from 1-20 or so. Especially if you burn it regular like you should. A 600 tpa planted stand will usually be closer to 500 by the time you thin. We still plant longleaf at 600 tpa or above. All we plant are container.
Loblolly is becoming a problem to get first thins done unless they are 1) older - 15-18 years or 2) planted at a lower density. We are going wider spacing the last few years because equipment is wider now so 8' x 12' or 453/ac is a reasonable density. This also allows the potential for some canter wood or post wood to be cut in the first thin. Good site prep and burning during the rotation is important because you don't want wild seedlings to up your density any. We do plant some container for the clients who have the money.

Thanks. Much appreciated !

I agree with Ted on the Longleaf density. Slash has come a long way in terms of rust resistance and overall seedling quality. It has been genetically modified but not near as much as lob. Remember with Slash that silviculture comes before profit. When it is time to thin Slash you need to prioritize getting it done because you are typically dealing with a site condition where you have smaller windows (weather /markets) to be successful in thinning operations. Slash has a tendency to stagnate, so you need to keep your stand growing by timely thinnings. I'm on the fence in terms of planting density with Lob. I haven't planted less than 545 per acre yet, but current markets in some areas, seedling genetics and cost, and especially downward pressure on rotation lengths, have me thinking that it might be worth considering in some areas.

One of my thoughts is to plan for lower density shorter rotation on our smaller tracts, say 40-70 acres. On stands that or larger or where we have additional stands that can be lumped together for thinning to replant based on thinning the stand at least once.

There are still a few crews in our area that thin but it’s getting harder to get them.

What we really need is a written management plan but getting the decision makers to do it is a challenge.

We had a management plan written up years ago, and that’s all well and good, but markets change.
In the last 15 years I’ve seen 1.00 pine pulp and 22.00 pine pulp.
One of our best timber sales was a hardwood pulpwood site, that sold for 22.00 a ton. We had basically nothing invested in the site prep, planting, etc. besides time. We use to stress about getting a good clear 16’ log, but now it’s more important to grow them fast, get them to a point where you can react when the market is up imo. Undesirable trees will prune a pine tree just as well, another pine tree is a pines greatest competition. Also, thinning is a “make or break” situation imo.
I’ve seen sites ruined by a bad thinning job, then I’ve have personally marked two tracts for a first and second thinning.
When we cleared it, it had 1% pulpwood.
“Forestry isn’t rocket science, it’s much more complex”
Good luck!

I did the cost share on LL in SE Alabama and as Gobbler said, that dictated the planting rate by recommending a range. If attempting to establish LL, it is crucial that you introduce fire at the recommended interval to remove competition from Loblolly pines that naturally seed. If you miss that first interval, you run the risk of having them take over the site. Due to an extremely mild winter, my LL put on candles early and I was unable to burn during that first interval. Fast forward two years later and I had to insert a ground crew with woods saws to cut down the loblolly. I burn on Feb 11th to clean up the four sites where I planted LL. LLs are still healthy and should rebound nicely.

Bigger companies in my area let a clearcut lay for a yr and let volunteers come up then spray for site prep. Then plant . Only thing growing is what they plant . Not cost effective and too much risk to burn anymore . Lose a year growth but end up making it up because of no competition. In a 20 or 30 yr rotation markets change a lot around here . Now pine lumber less than $500 a thousand . Lot landowners letting pines stand grow because no one to cut it .some are dozing down beetle damage . Best market was white oak whiskey barrel logs but now that on a tight quota.

You can also do everything right and get a crap stand. My last cut I decided to spend the money and do it right. I let it lay a year, sprayed and burned. And I have a mess of competition and regenerated pines. But that’s what happens when you hire a forester who bends ya over prison style. Was sprayed ridiculously late and planted ridiculously late with trees I expect had been sitting in the warehouse two months. Within a month or two there were brown little pine trees everywhere. All the while I am hearing “ blah blah spray has residual, they will be fine blah blah.”Now that frost has burned down the junk he will be coming back and we will be having a discussion. Possibly followed by a discussion with the Forestry Department.

WHASB!!!

The great thing about doing business with regulated professions is that they really really do not want the regulating agency involved. I have had no dealings with Forestry and do not know whether they are more concerned about consumers or the industry but after being a Florida commercial real estate appraiser for about 35 years I know any referral to FREAB, even a bs one, would be an expensive and time consuming PITA.