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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: ]
#104139
03/08/11 08:30 PM
03/08/11 08:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180 Coffee Co, AL
jlccoffee
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180
Coffee Co, AL
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MS extended the season in only a few counties in the southeastern part of the state, which were biologically proven to have a later rut, extending into February. The season was extended to allow hunters the opportunity afforded by the rest of the state, to hunt the rut of course.
I can potentially see a couple of negatives. Neither of which I have ground to stand on right now. With last year's new regulations allowing primitive weapons on Novemebr 9 until the opening of regular gun season, and the extension into February I can argue the length of time guns are allowed could potentially over-exploit the buck segment of the population. And, south MS has a lower deer density and poorer habitat quality than the rest of the state. Combine those two together and I could see problems at some point.
The hunters sure haven't complained about it. Since those deer along the state line have been biologically proven to have a late rut extending into February, and Alabama will have no part of such deer. What provisions have been made to keep those late rutting Mississippi deer on your side of the state line?
Last edited by jlccoffee; 03/08/11 08:31 PM.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: WmHunter]
#104141
03/08/11 08:34 PM
03/08/11 08:34 PM
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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We haven't been able to keep them in. They keep running across the border cause they know they get 15 days of rest in AL. They really be confused if they start getting shot at over there too.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: WmHunter]
#104150
03/08/11 08:44 PM
03/08/11 08:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,097 Round ‘bout there
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,097
Round ‘bout there
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Naa, just put up a fence.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: Steve Ditchkoff]
#104203
03/08/11 10:14 PM
03/08/11 10:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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Dr. D., But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. I feel that we should be doing two things: (1) Making decisions based on data, and (2) Considering the biological, social, economic, etc. implications for whatever change is proposed. In my opinion, number 2 doesn't seem to be getting much attention.
First: seasons are currently being set for all kinds of reasons other than those defined by law. For instance, what are the biological effects of killing a deer with a gun as opposed to killing a deer with a bow? If there is no biological difference, is there a valid reason to set seasons according to the method used? Second: biology is a combination of zoology and botany. If the state has a duty to regulate consumption of our zoological resources using scientific data to determine what is best for the animals, does it have a duty as well to use biological data to determine what is best for our native plant resources? Should the harvest of our natural timber resources on privately owned property be regulated according to data that shows what's best for each particular species, or should the "if it's hardwood it's down" crowd be allowed to consume the resource as it desires? The effects of political science are an integral part of the decision making process in regualting the consumption of our natural resources. It is not purely natural science. Property rights, fundamental rights, and now, I suppose, animal rights are all involved. Should we also include botanical rights since it's biology and not zoology we're discussing? Hmmm!!!
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: Driveby]
#104213
03/08/11 10:32 PM
03/08/11 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,060 Hoover
burbank
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,060
Hoover
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But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. Steve, a few days back I started a thread that simply asked for a biological reason as to why the season should be extended. After several pages of responses, would you care to guess at how many answers I got to my question? ZERO!!! It's kind of like talking to children while they are drooling at the window of the candy store. You can tell them the candy could rot their teeth out down the road but all they care about is the satisfaction of the here and now. They want what tastes good to them now, not what's healthy. I would like to know your biological reason against it, or for QDM, or for being able to kill 100 plus deer in Alabama. Let the science speak first. You act as if you KNOW it would be detrimental to the herd.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: burbank]
#104222
03/08/11 11:14 PM
03/08/11 11:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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In our state, hunting season is supposed to be open by default. If a biological reason is determined to exist that would endanger the perpetuation of the species, then closing the season is authorized. That's what our law says: 9-2-7-(7) To close the season of any species of game in any county or area when, upon a survey by the department, it is found necessary to the conservation and perpetuation of such species and to reopen such closed season when it is deemed advisable.
We aren't required to come up with some biological excuse to hunt. Hunting is our God-given right. As long as we hunt within reasonable limits that are necessary to sustain the species, we are within our rights. It's wildlife we are hunting. If you choose animal husbandry, that's your choice. It is not the state's responsibility to implement wildlife husbandry for you.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: 49er]
#104244
03/09/11 06:04 AM
03/09/11 06:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239 Auburn University
Steve Ditchkoff
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239
Auburn University
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Dr. D., But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. I feel that we should be doing two things: (1) Making decisions based on data, and (2) Considering the biological, social, economic, etc. implications for whatever change is proposed. In my opinion, number 2 doesn't seem to be getting much attention.
First: seasons are currently being set for all kinds of reasons other than those defined by law. For instance, what are the biological effects of killing a deer with a gun as opposed to killing a deer with a bow? If there is no biological difference, is there a valid reason to set seasons according to the method used? Second: biology is a combination of zoology and botany. If the state has a duty to regulate consumption of our zoological resources using scientific data to determine what is best for the animals, does it have a duty as well to use biological data to determine what is best for our native plant resources? Should the harvest of our natural timber resources on privately owned property be regulated according to data that shows what's best for each particular species, or should the "if it's hardwood it's down" crowd be allowed to consume the resource as it desires? The effects of political science are an integral part of the decision making process in regualting the consumption of our natural resources. It is not purely natural science. Property rights, fundamental rights, and now, I suppose, animal rights are all involved. Should we also include botanical rights since it's biology and not zoology we're discussing? Hmmm!!! First, biology is much, much more than a combination of zoology and botany. Second, if you want to argue with someone about how we manage timber resources in the state, I suggest you send letters to the appropriate people. Third, I believe that my inclusion of the words "economic, social, etc." suggested that things other than biology are important factors to consider during this decision-making process. If I failed to put the exact words you were looking for in my posting...I sincerely apologize.
*************** Steve Ditchkoff College of Forestry, Wildlife and Environment Auburn University ***************
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: Steve Ditchkoff]
#104246
03/09/11 06:10 AM
03/09/11 06:10 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239 Auburn University
Steve Ditchkoff
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239
Auburn University
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Let me state my position clearly...which I believe most people received, but a few did not.
I was not making an argument for or against this bill. My intention was not to make a statement suggest that "this" or "that" would occur if the bill was passed. My only point was to suggest that anytime we propose change, we should always carefully consider what that change might cause. In this case, the proposed change could have positive or negative effects on biological issues, economic issues, and social issues.
My feeling was that this aspect of the issue was not receiving any commentary...and I feel that this aspect is extremely important.
*************** Steve Ditchkoff College of Forestry, Wildlife and Environment Auburn University ***************
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: burbank]
#104255
03/09/11 06:29 AM
03/09/11 06:29 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,077 Guntersville, AL
BirminghamBuck
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,077
Guntersville, AL
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But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. Steve, a few days back I started a thread that simply asked for a biological reason as to why the season should be extended. After several pages of responses, would you care to guess at how many answers I got to my question? ZERO!!! It's kind of like talking to children while they are drooling at the window of the candy store. You can tell them the candy could rot their teeth out down the road but all they care about is the satisfaction of the here and now. They want what tastes good to them now, not what's healthy. I would like to know your biological reason against it, or for QDM, or for being able to kill 100 plus deer in Alabama. Let the science speak first. You act as if you KNOW it would be detrimental to the herd. I agree. Since we are not 100% positive of what will happen to the herd, maybe we should put this aside for this year until more scientific data can be gathered and let the governement work on things that really matter in the state. Good idea.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: 49er]
#104265
03/09/11 06:42 AM
03/09/11 06:42 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583 Walker county
Driveby
Doing the best I can.
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Doing the best I can.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583
Walker county
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To those who advocate setting seasons stricly for the biological benefit of wildlife:
What fundamental rights do animals have, if any, that the state has a duty to protect?
Are you, perhaps, a conservative animal rights advocate? Dangit you caught me!!! I'm really a closet vegetarian PETA activist sent to infiltrate this site. I was doing a dang fine job too considering I was made a moderator but now you have rooted me out. 49'er, since you figured me out, I'll go ahead and let you know about this weeks demonstration I'll be participating in. I'll be out on the street corner in front of the local BBQ establishment to show my disgust of the killing of innocent pigs. I will be completely naked in a cage with my body painted pink and wearing a fake snout. I was originally planning to demonstrate at the zoo but my boss said I didn't have the body for being painted like a tiger and I was better suited for BBQ protests. Come on out and see me. I'll even let you get your picture made with me for your scrap book.
The true mark of a man is not how he conducts himself during times of prosperity, but how he conducts himself during times of adversity.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: 49er]
#104271
03/09/11 06:51 AM
03/09/11 06:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239 Auburn University
Steve Ditchkoff
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239
Auburn University
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To those who advocate setting seasons stricly for the biological benefit of wildlife:
What fundamental rights do animals have, if any, that the state has a duty to protect?
Are you, perhaps, a conservative animal rights advocate? 49er: I assume (maybe incorrectly) that since I was the one who just made some noise about considering biological effects, that this was at least partially intended for me. But, I think you should look closely at what I actually said... "But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. I feel that we should be doing two things: (1) Making decisions based on data, and (2) Considering the biological, social, economic, etc. implications for whatever change is proposed. In my opinion, number 2 doesn't seem to be getting much attention." I actually said "biological, social, economic, etc." I in no way suggested that only biological benefits should be considered, and never did I (or anyone else) suggest anything about "the rights of animals."
*************** Steve Ditchkoff College of Forestry, Wildlife and Environment Auburn University ***************
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: burbank]
#104272
03/09/11 06:52 AM
03/09/11 06:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583 Walker county
Driveby
Doing the best I can.
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Doing the best I can.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583
Walker county
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But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. Steve, a few days back I started a thread that simply asked for a biological reason as to why the season should be extended. After several pages of responses, would you care to guess at how many answers I got to my question? ZERO!!! It's kind of like talking to children while they are drooling at the window of the candy store. You can tell them the candy could rot their teeth out down the road but all they care about is the satisfaction of the here and now. They want what tastes good to them now, not what's healthy. I would like to know your biological reason against it, or for QDM, or for being able to kill 100 plus deer in Alabama. Let the science speak first. You act as if you KNOW it would be detrimental to the herd. OK then. It's a fact that the deer herd in Alabama has a skewed ratio of bucks to does. So ask yourself, what's the reasoning behind the season extension? To hunt the rut of course? Why do people want to hunt the rut? To kill that buck chasing that doe. Now, there have been a few on here tell me it's not about killing that buck but the "experience". HOGWASH!!!!! If you believe that then you will believe Nancy Pelosi is a right wing, consevative, gun advocate and Skinny is the Tooth Fairy. Now, is killing more bucks beneficial to a herd that already has skewed sex ratios or is it detrimental? Also, is that hunter that's waiting on that next Booner going to be more inclined to shoot that doe that needs to be taken out and possibly mess up his chance at old mossy horns he thinks is just out of site or is he going to let her walk? You know the answer. More bucks killed + less does killed = bad for the herd.
The true mark of a man is not how he conducts himself during times of prosperity, but how he conducts himself during times of adversity.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: Driveby]
#104292
03/09/11 07:23 AM
03/09/11 07:23 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,176 cantonment florida
Geronimo
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,176
cantonment florida
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Biologically speaking, three bucks is three bucks. It doesn't matter if you kill them in January or February.
I'll be honest and tell you that I'm probably only an average hunter at best and the land I hunt (mostly Perdido wma)is very hard to hunt and there's not a whole lot of deer on the land. Being able to hunt there in early February would give me a better shot at killing a buck because most of the time they are just starting to chase.
Now you go ahead and be honest and put all the biological mumbo jumbo aside and say that you don't want February deer hunting because you're afraid that it will mess up your rabbit hunting.
"I'm just an old chunk of coal but I'm gonna be a diamond some day."
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: Geronimo]
#104308
03/09/11 07:48 AM
03/09/11 07:48 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583 Walker county
Driveby
Doing the best I can.
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Doing the best I can.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583
Walker county
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February deer season would definately mess up small game season for a lot of people. I won't sugar coat it or beat around the bush abour it, I don't like it for this reason either. I've stated this many times. It would be no different than deer season running into turkey season. The difference is the turkey hunters have an organization with lots of backing to let their voices be heard in opposition if that happened. Why should other small game hunters be treated any differently because of their lack of funding or a nation wide organization?
The true mark of a man is not how he conducts himself during times of prosperity, but how he conducts himself during times of adversity.
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: ]
#104320
03/09/11 08:09 AM
03/09/11 08:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,655 Gulfport, MS
BDhunts
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,655
Gulfport, MS
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MS extended the season in only a few counties in the southeastern part of the state, which were biologically proven to have a later rut, extending into February. The season was extended to allow hunters the opportunity afforded by the rest of the state, to hunt the rut of course.
I can potentially see a couple of negatives. Neither of which I have ground to stand on right now. With last year's new regulations allowing primitive weapons on Novemebr 9 until the opening of regular gun season, and the extension into February I can argue the length of time guns are allowed could potentially over-exploit the buck segment of the population. And, south MS has a lower deer density and poorer habitat quality than the rest of the state. Combine those two together and I could see problems at some point.
The hunters sure haven't complained about it. Thanks Matt.....
Genesis 27:3 Acts 10:11-15 Hunt Long, Hunt Hard and Safe NRA LIFE MEMBER "Odocoileus Virginianus"-Mother Nature's original fast food
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: Driveby]
#104327
03/09/11 08:28 AM
03/09/11 08:28 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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Dr. D., Your recommendations for setting seasons and limits reflect a tendency to consider the biological benefit of animals over the liberty of hunters. That was the philosophy that was used to reduce the male deer limit by 98% with an added antler configuration restriction. It was not done to preserve the liberty of hunters. Here are some excerpts of "animal bill of rights" that appear to me to reflect a similar philosophy that the "rights" of animals should be protected by the state: The Right of wildlife to a natural habitat, ecologically sufficient to a normal existence and self-sustaining species population.
The Right of animals to have their interests represented in court and safeguarded by the law of the land.
From the Animal Bill of Rights of the Animal Legal Defense Fund Bill of Rights for Animals 1. All animals are born with an equal claim on life and the same rights to existence.
2. All animals are entitled to respect. Humanity as an animal species shall not arrogate to itself the right to exterminate or exploit other species. It is humanity's duty to use its knowledge for the welfare of animals. All animals have the right to the attention, care, and protection of humanity.
9. Any act involving the wanton killing of the animals is biocide, that is, a crime against life.
10. Any act involving the mass killing of wild animals is genocide, that is, a crime against the species. Pollution or destruction of the natural environment leads to genocide
From the website of the Animal Liberation Front When hunters are restricted in their liberty using arguments that the biological needs of certain species of animals is a superior concern that the state needs to protect, it resembles the assumption that game animals have rights. If that is accepted, then the next step is to consider the equality of the various game animal species in regard to those rights... i.e. - do hogs and coyotes have the same rights as deer??
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: Driveby]
#104347
03/09/11 08:56 AM
03/09/11 08:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,060 Hoover
burbank
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,060
Hoover
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But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. Steve, a few days back I started a thread that simply asked for a biological reason as to why the season should be extended. After several pages of responses, would you care to guess at how many answers I got to my question? ZERO!!! It's kind of like talking to children while they are drooling at the window of the candy store. You can tell them the candy could rot their teeth out down the road but all they care about is the satisfaction of the here and now. They want what tastes good to them now, not what's healthy. I would like to know your biological reason against it, or for QDM, or for being able to kill 100 plus deer in Alabama. Let the science speak first. You act as if you KNOW it would be detrimental to the herd. OK then. It's a fact that the deer herd in Alabama has a skewed ratio of bucks to does. So ask yourself, what's the reasoning behind the season extension? To hunt the rut of course? Why do people want to hunt the rut? To kill that buck chasing that doe. Now, there have been a few on here tell me it's not about killing that buck but the "experience". HOGWASH!!!!! If you believe that then you will believe Nancy Pelosi is a right wing, consevative, gun advocate and Skinny is the Tooth Fairy. Now, is killing more bucks beneficial to a herd that already has skewed sex ratios or is it detrimental? Also, is that hunter that's waiting on that next Booner going to be more inclined to shoot that doe that needs to be taken out and possibly mess up his chance at old mossy horns he thinks is just out of site or is he going to let her walk? You know the answer. More bucks killed + less does killed = bad for the herd. Ever hear of the three buck rule?? If I am not mistaken, doe harvest actually DECREASED the first year of it's existence. I really don't see how two extra weeks (and possibly closing two to balance) can be deemed unhealthy to the herd based on sex ratios. Your biological reasons against it did nothing to convince me. I just counter with "it gives me two more weeks to shoot does and balance my herd".
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Re: Change is Coming!
[Re: burbank]
#104387
03/09/11 09:47 AM
03/09/11 09:47 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583 Walker county
Driveby
Doing the best I can.
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Doing the best I can.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,583
Walker county
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But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. Steve, a few days back I started a thread that simply asked for a biological reason as to why the season should be extended. After several pages of responses, would you care to guess at how many answers I got to my question? ZERO!!! It's kind of like talking to children while they are drooling at the window of the candy store. You can tell them the candy could rot their teeth out down the road but all they care about is the satisfaction of the here and now. They want what tastes good to them now, not what's healthy. I would like to know your biological reason against it, or for QDM, or for being able to kill 100 plus deer in Alabama. Let the science speak first. You act as if you KNOW it would be detrimental to the herd. OK then. It's a fact that the deer herd in Alabama has a skewed ratio of bucks to does. So ask yourself, what's the reasoning behind the season extension? To hunt the rut of course? Why do people want to hunt the rut? To kill that buck chasing that doe. Now, there have been a few on here tell me it's not about killing that buck but the "experience". HOGWASH!!!!! If you believe that then you will believe Nancy Pelosi is a right wing, consevative, gun advocate and Skinny is the Tooth Fairy. Now, is killing more bucks beneficial to a herd that already has skewed sex ratios or is it detrimental? Also, is that hunter that's waiting on that next Booner going to be more inclined to shoot that doe that needs to be taken out and possibly mess up his chance at old mossy horns he thinks is just out of site or is he going to let her walk? You know the answer. More bucks killed + less does killed = bad for the herd. Ever hear of the three buck rule?? If I am not mistaken, doe harvest actually DECREASED the first year of it's existence. I really don't see how two extra weeks (and possibly closing two to balance) can be deemed unhealthy to the herd based on sex ratios. Your biological reasons against it did nothing to convince me. I just counter with "it gives me two more weeks to shoot does and balance my herd". Yes, I've heard of the 3 buck limit. I'm also hearing that hunters in south Alabama can't kill a buck in January because they aren't hunting the rut so they need the season extnded. Now, if this is true then harvest of bucks will increase. If it isn't true and you are indeed killing bucks now (which means the harvest of bucks will not increase as some are stating), then why do you need the season extended? You see, one of your arguments negates the other. I really don't expect to change your mind because you are looking through the candy store window.
The true mark of a man is not how he conducts himself during times of prosperity, but how he conducts himself during times of adversity.
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