Honestly, I've talked to quite a few former gay or lesbian person's. We have a lady in our church and have had speakers before and we have had some experience dealing with people suffering from same sex attraction.

So far every one I've spoken to has has some childhood trauma that greatly effected them and caused a same sex attraction.It wasn't like they had a normal and wonderful childhood but were just attracted to the same sex. Some may be, but none that have had the courage to share their story with me.

America is becoming a habitation for devils. And they are winning without any open civil conflict at all.

Every judge who rules in favor of "gay" marriage or adoption should be strung up on the nearest light pole. Same for any judge who rules in favor of infanticide/abortion. And any judge that rules that international law or Sharia law has any applicability in U.S. courts.

Same for anyone involved in this satanic unconstitutional bull:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/10/0...ntcmp=obnetwork

LOL! I'll tell you what he is essentially asking and it's a question I've asked the "it's a choice" people before.

If your sexuality is a choice then all you guys must go out every day and look at men and women's asses and think, "Mmmm mmm, I'd sure like to have me some of either one of those." "But I'll suppress the urge to mount that man butt cause God wants me to stick with p####."

Is that how your day goes? Cause mine is nothing like that. I am not attracted to men. I could not feel romantic love for another man. Therefore my sexuality is not a conscious choice for me. And it never has been. Since I've been old enough to have a sexual thought or urge I have only been attracted to women. So if it hasn't been a choice for me, how can I point my finger at others and say, "oh but for you it was a choice." Seems an unfair double standard to me.

A lot of people in this country claim they believe in freedom but really they do not. What they really believe is that people should be free to do things they agree with but restricted from doing anything they don't like. Even when the thing they don't like will have no tangible effect on their lives.

As a heterosexual male I find the thought of two men having sex disgusting. But despite that what two consenting adults do sexually isn't any of my business. And whether they get married or not has absolutely no effect on my marriage or my life. So as a true believer in freedom why should I be opposed to it?

From what study is this data or conclusions?

You just don't get it.

1. No one in America in it's 400 year history EVER CARED what consenting adults did in the privacy of their own home. Not even in 1650 - or 1950, and not today.

2. The issue is now totally different as a result of a hyper aggressive cultural war which is waged by Satanists to make their aberrant behavior PUBLIC and to FORCE the entire country to accept it as normal and acceptable. Gross perversion should never be accepted - and yes, it should be FORCED to keep itself totally private and completely out of the pubic eye and public realm.

3. ALL perversion that is made public, particularly in the way the sodomite lesbo agenda has been made public in countless ways, from "parades" to TV and movies, DOES affect every single person in the country - in a negative way. And make no doubt, recruitment is a MAJOR aspect of the homosexual agenda, and to pervert and corrupt the entire society. So it does matter and it does affect the entire body politic. It is just as criminal as a person who goes out in public and flashes their private parts - but even worse.

4. You do not understand what freedom really is and how it is supposed to operate in a Anglo-European Christian Constitutional Republic. It does not mean complete total 100% freedom to do anything and everything. It is not meant to be the establishment of a totally hedonistic anarchic free for all. It is supposed to be ORDERED liberty, with rules, laws and regulations to maintain that order and yes, decency, and to combat crime and perversion.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I would say that any man who tolerates evil is not a good man in the first place.

Welcome to Talibama.

Todd...excellent analysis in most everything you wrote. I get why you believe what you do. It makes sense to me. Yeah, I know...weird me agreeing with you in some way.

However, there are two points I'd like to make about what you said:

1. There is no reason why you would be in opposition to gay marriage. The reason why, in my opinion, is that you've told us before on this forum that God-based absolute truth or moral standards are fiction. So it makes perfect sense for you to have no objections, not because you love freedom but because you don't believe in God and His standard. Now I know you do love freedom, as do I. But your idea of freedom is in human terms only, and does not take into account what God designed as True Freedom in Christ.

2. Choices. From my perspective, the reason you do not have to make a conscious choice to be attracted to women each day is pretty simple. God wrote on the hearts of all human creation what is right and wrong. That truth is part of you whether you deny God or love God. But we live in a fallen world where sin abounds...and some people have chosen homosexuality as a result of sexual immorality or either have felt desires/attractions from their earliest memories because this is their personal affliction or their resulting problem of being alive in a sinful, fallen, cursed world---they feel it is natural and were born that way so it must be perfectly fine. But ultimately, it is their sin nature coming out in them just as it comes out in all of us. Their issues just happen to be homosexual in type. Where mine or yours, or someone else may be completely different in scope and nature. I'm not opposed to the notion that they were born with this sin nature. Maybe we all are born with certain struggles. Perhaps your battle/struggle/sin nature is unbelief? Perhaps mine is addiction and lust? Perhaps John Doe struggles with greed and power?

I respect your freedom to write you opinions and thoughts. My reply is simply my view and opinion on the subjects being discussed in this thread.

Talabama

But do we or should we have the right to use law to impose restrictions on people that are purely religious in nature? Murder, rape, theft of property, and all similar things directly and negatively impact another humans life which we have no right to do. Therefore we restrict such things by law. But what two grown people do sexually or whether two people want to be legally bound to each other in no way affects me or my rights. That being the case on what legal grounds can I say it should be illegal?

Everything mentioned in the Bible was directly from Jesus Christ....Old Testament and New Testament.

John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made”

So we know Christ was the Creator God. Christ is also the Word. So when Christ references Gen 2:24 when he speaks in Matthew 19:4-6 he is quoting himself.

Same thing for the following verses for example.

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.


Romans 1: 26-32
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound[c] doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.


So Christ does specifically address homosexuality as well as other issues as wrong and sinful along with a description of what true marriage/relationships are to be...because Christ is the Word.

Let me use the old google box:
Pubmed, Science and Nature, BBC, Penn State U, national geographic, NC State, etc

You can read more if you want: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=digit+length+vs+sexual+orientation


I have NEVER, EVER had to make any choice. Those of you that struggle with this choice while looking at women or men every day must have really struggled in the shower after football.

Wow is this ever wrong. Even though they are rarely, if ever, enforced any more there are numerous laws on the books of most states that apply even to sex between a man and wife in their own home.



There is enough irony in that statement to choke a mule. Essentially your notion of freedom is people should be free to only do what you like and allow them to do. Cause you know, you're you and what you think is right. Cause you know, it's what "you" think. LOL!

You are the epitome of what I mean in my initial post when I said a lot people think they believe in freedom when really they don't. Your ideal model for a country would be Iran.

You are obviously lacking in education about your own country. And morals and decency. And lacking in common sense. Iran? What are you,a 12 year old? Because that is a about the maturity level of your argument.

You know nothing about the history of your own country. And obviously don't even care. Fyi, the Founding Fathers did not establish an anarchy of hedonism where anything goes.

On what basis do we have no right to negatively impact another humans life by such things including murder, rape, theft, and others? Are not these restrictions based on something?


You do not want our laws and restrictions to be based on religion. Well any moral laws are based on God's nature and His natural law, along with his Word.

So what reasons do you based the "approved" restrictions? From what source tells you it is the right thing to do???

I stand and say, yes they are based on something indeed. They are based on God and His Word and his nature. The very nature of God is opposed to wrong doing and from the down of time this has been written on the hearts of mankind; Even mankind who knew zero about God or that one even existed.

Culturally, civilizations have generally had some form of law and order based on certain absolute truths inherently known by man....without knowledge of God or a Bible to read. How is this even possible for the world over in ancient times to inherently know that murder, theft and other actions were wrong? It is possible because God wrote it on the hearts of all mankind. Now some may choose to ignore that internal call and wander off into evil, but the calling is still there.

The Bible supports this supported as well:

Romans 2: 12-16
2 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

The Old Testament for Jews and for Christians writes them down, but they were already in our hearts outside of the Law.

So our system of current laws on murder, theft, rape, etc... are based on God and Biblical Truth. They are in fact religious in nature, not just in the USA but globally it exists too. There have been subsequent and numerous perversions of God's natural moral law and truths to be honest. But that doesn't erase the facts demonstrated by god's Word and in the cultures of people without God.

Marriage and family is the heart of civilization and culture. Homosexual re-branding of marriage and family is a systematic attempt to unravel and change the heart of the culture by the Progressive Movement. Why? The goal is to separate men, women and children from God. Destruction of marriage by redefinition is just one way of accomplishing that. Heterosexual marriage is having issues as we all know.

If men want to have sex with men, women with women...so be it. It has always been an issue and always will be due to sin. But changing the definition on marriage within a country that was founded upon Biblical principles and precepts and ideas...well it's just wrong in my opinion and should not be allowed.

But to say that religious morality should not be applied is to ignore the other applications already existing.

(toothdoc...sorry that was long, but it was required )

This goes to worldview again. A Biblical worldview that is true and accurate gets it.

It seems to me that the answer is simple.

- "Marriage" is something between a man and woman in church.
- "Civil Union" is something between 2 people governed by the state & is legally binding.

In other words: Remove "marriage" from the legal language.

Wouldn't this solve the problem.

"A Rose by any other name...is still a rose"-- Billy Shakespeare

No one has said there shouldn't be any laws and that anything should be Ok. Where do you get this s##t? You are arguing against a stance no one has taken. You are trying to equate allowing two people to marry with allowing them to have anal intercourse on a public bus. Not the same thing.

And the personal insults? Really? And I'm the 12 year old? LOL!

Like I said, you just don't get it. Because you are a morally bankrupt liberal. Folks like you ARE the problem in America.

And yes, gays openly parading in the streets and having it televised on TV programs is worse than a person flashing. It is evil and perverted - something your pathetic 12 year old mentality just doesn't get. I feel sorry for your children.

I've said what I wanted to say for the most part, but I wish to be real clear on a couple of things.

Standing up for/Speaking out on what God says is right, true and just is not Talabama or some ultra-controlling jihad mindset against freedom.

There is honor and virtue in upholding Truth. Ridicule and mockery is the opposite of honor and virtue. There is Truth and then truth. Truth with a capital "T" is what God says about it. Honesty, Integrity, Virtue, Character, Honor---these are all ideals set forth by God based on His nature in whose image all men were created.

We all have our own beliefs and views. None of us are ever 100% right all the time, yet often we can be 100% wrong some of the time.

Worldviews define who we are and what we believe to be true. A true holder of a Biblical worldview would never be in favor of or condone or approve or be fine with gay marriage because it runs counter to what God created and ordained.

A compromised worldview may make all kinds of exceptions. Either the Bible and God are real and true or they aren't.

I'm not mad at anyone with a different opinion or view. I enjoy these discussions. I don't hate gay people. I don't want marriage re-defined. Homosexuality is sin just like many other things are sin. Satan is a great deceiver.

No, he is not wrong, he is right about everything he said in that post. You are obviously not aware that there are still laws on the books in many states (although they were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court decades ago) saying consensual sex between adults that involves the mouth or anus of one individual and the genitals of anther is illegal. Most of those laws don't even say those people have to be of the same sex. So, there are states where it is illegal to get a blow job in your bedroom.

Finally, who has advocated "an anarchy of hedonism where anything goes."?