I totally get that. But you fail to see that our constitution and most of our laws are morally based. And by morally based I mean the promotion and ensuring of the ideals of justice, honesty, goodness, honor, virtue, rights, liberty, etc...

Why are murder, theft, and other improprieties illegal under our laws? Why are people not free to do anything and everything they wish, regardless of who it impacts negatively? Because they break an inherently understood morality of right and wrong. The framers of the constitution understood this very well and many of them wrote about the connection between liberty and virtue/moral goodness. The reason they understood this is that our framers understood God's Word and His principles, even the theists and Unitarians in the group grasped this. Not all were Christians or understood God the way some of us might, but they all understood the value and benefit of the principles. There was nothing to fear from honor, nothing to fear from virtue, nothing to fear from Biblical principles of right and wrong, nothing to fear from good morality.


This might get libertarian feathers ruffled, but there are certain things like gay marriage and abortion that are of such a harming impact on society that a country that values honor, virtue and goodness would be wise to never allow. The health and wealth of a community and of a nation are vested in the viable and thriving family unit. The redefining of family, of marriage, of viable life by Progressive groups that want to change our constitution and change our way of life is an attack within our borders. America became great because we were exceptional. America was exceptional based on our First Principles. America offered the most liberty to common people of any government ever know to mankind. But it was liberty based on the exercise of individual freedoms founded on honor, virtue and good morals...along with the actual government reflecting the same. So the framework of our laws and constitution have this base.

Sadly, we have so many codified laws and judicial judgements today on the books that are far from honorable, virtuous and moral. We live in an Administrative State now, far past the constitutional federal republic the founders envisioned. Federal government growth out of control coupled with excessive agency rule making has crippled liberty for decades. There is much to be mad about as far as restrictions on liberty...and I'm in that fight with you.

I get that my perspective is different, and it goes against the grain of some on here. We are in good company, because I dislike some of your ideas too. If people want to have an active gay lifestyle and live that way, I'll never support getting in their way. They are free to choose that pursuit. But the institution of marriage in this discussion is greater than that. And I'm in favor of preserving and reserving that for heterosexual couples only. It is the right thing to do, even if heterosexual couples are busy defiling it. For me, I can't openly support gay marriage without denying what my Lord had to say on the subject.

Again, liberty is awesome. But we all need to be careful not to make it an idol. An idol is anything that we put above God or along side him as equal in importance. I'll default to God's standard for living as the "gold standard" every single time. I agree with James Madison who said this about liberty:

""To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea."

When the government, the courts, the people loose virtue, our nation will fall.

First, not all businesses are open to customers. Second, there is such a thing as a private business. Millions of examples nationwide. Maybe you meant something else?

But bamachem does make a point that should be understood. The Progressive movement wants to do away with private business and have all subject to federal government involvement in operations as much as possible.

Which is why LGBT will soon become a "protected class" of people. This is a huge push in this agenda driven movement. We cannot discriminate on race, religion, gender, age, and ethnicity now and for good reason. Soon private businesses will be forced to accept LGBT customers and employees. As soon as the courts declare that being LGBT is a natural human condition that cannot be discriminated against (as in you can't choose your skin color, or gender, or age, or where you were born--so you have protections). It will be the first time that behaviors are granted protected status. My will the world change then.

spot on straycat

Your just playing on words. I ain't gotta sell somebody schit if I don't want to and I'll tell em to take a flying leap if I want to as well.

ya'll are STILL argueing about a bunch of effin queers????

kinda what I thought


back when I was shooting weddings I guess they'd sued me, I have NO clue as to how to pose a gay couple????????

Reminds me of a young lady I turned down that wanted her wedding to look like pics in magazine of weddings in Scotland. She was getting married in country Church with cinder block walls in the basement for the reception.

I wasn't gonna be the one to disappoint her.

I've been around plenty of gay couples, not one has said they thought getting married was what they wanted. Most said it was a ruse.

They are mostly strawmen for the left to promote their agenda.

and the Church our Fore Fathers mentioned, was a State sponsored Church they left behind

And Vance just brought the whole discussion home.

There is a real spiritual battle being waged by Satan for the hearts, souls and minds of people the world over. He will do everything in his power to separate us from God. That is his only focus. Of the many tools he employs are several which corrupt the heart of a nation:

Family Unit
Education
Church

The faults, stumbles and failures of each of these three generate an enormous negative impact on the importance and value of having a real relationship with God through Christ. Honor, virtue, and good morals are the things that are in harmony with God. As the culture tosses aside these ideals, it spirals into decay with the failures of marriage, the progressive takeover of public education, the lack of biblical leadership of the churches, and the corrupt redefinition of certain words and institutions this correlates to more and more people abandoning God and turning to themselves for happiness or to the government for provision.

Perhaps even worse is those who oppose Satan often get caught unaware that they have been deceived and are now completely ineffective for Christ. They tolerate, accept, excuse, condone and accommodate all manner of things that go against God and His principles for a variety of reasons. Reasons they justify. The argument over what is and isn't "Liberty" is no different.

And the battle rages on. Some prepared for the war, some oblivious, some rejecting God outright.

Yes they are! I called them Pillow bitters and fudge packers, but queers will work too!

Exactly.

Good post.

All you have done is prove that you are just another morally bankrupt liberal - and pervert. Who has never studied any aspect of world or American history much less Constitutional law.

And also an embicile - Iran??, so America and American Christians and those who believe in traditional moral values that this country was founded on (amongst other things like God based and originated Natural Law) have all of a sudden in the 21st century become Iran??? What was it in 1620? Or 1776? Or 1900? or 1976?

So to oppose sodomite marriage = Iran? and Nazism? Only a totally morally bankrupt, perverted moron would make such a claim.

P.S. A satanically motivated and led person would also make such a claim. And they are every day.

#1 - I never said "never" in regards to the enforcement of the laws against sodomy. So you just misrepresented my statements - that is called dishonesty.

I said it was rare, and that is a FACT. In point of fact it has been very rare throughout American history and especially rare the last 100 years.

In terms of the Lawrence case #1: most commentators have always suspected some kind of strange set up with regard to that case in terms of getting it into the federal court system. But #2, regardless, the point I was making is that it is a FALSE STRAW MAN to say that homos/lesbos need any protection for what they do in *private* because Lawrence already established that protection.

And homosexual marriage is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT MATTER - it is a PUBLIC and societal wide matter. And the majority of voters in the majority of states have rejected it.

Take a look at Pat Buchanon's article on the problem with the judicial oligarchy in this country:

http://buchanan.org/blog/judicial-dictatorship-7010

He is spot on.

P.S. Your small amount of legal training is obviously very small when it comes to the U.S. Constitution and American legal history and how the history of the West and England flows into that history. I doubt you have ever read Cooke or Blackstone. You cannot even make a distinction between the now clearly established right of homos to have homo sex in private and homos demanding the right to be "married" and to adopt and to force everyone else to submit to their demands.