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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: hunting13]
#1108961
10/12/14 08:57 AM
10/12/14 08:57 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
straycat
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
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Bamachem and Todd1700,
Serious questions for you both:
Does virtue have any impact or influence on liberty?
What would liberty look like without it?
In the face of a lack of self-government, along with an agenda driven machine pushing for change, is there a need for government to secure not undefined liberty but virtuous liberty for the good of the nation?
I don't always agree with y'all, but I do always like to read your insights and reasoning. Understanding various viewpoints is helpful.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: hunting13]
#1109025
10/12/14 10:55 AM
10/12/14 10:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
straycat
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
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I think many people don't understand the concept of liberty from both God's perspective and from our Founders perspective.
Liberty without honor, virtue and good morals is subject to corruption...a target actually.
A nation that embraces and condones certain things that are/were universally known to be a perversion of what is good and right...is in decline, as was Rome.
Liberty has become an idol, rather than emphasis on honor, virtue and goodness. Which is to be expected from a biblical perspective.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: hunting13]
#1109084
10/12/14 11:52 AM
10/12/14 11:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,943
Pine Hill, Al
Todd1700
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,943
Pine Hill, Al
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Let me site an example Straycat that I think answers your question.
We have nazis in this country. Skinheads too. I hate what they are. I despise the venom they spew. It sickens me that after thousands of Americans had to give their lives in WW2 to stop nazi Germany that there could be Americans that would want to associate tnemselves with such an organization. I see nothing virtuous about them or the things they espouse. Do you? Yet as long as they harm no one I will defend their right to be what they are and say what they say. As American citizens that liberty is their birth right and is not dependent apon whether I like them or not. It is a slippery slope to start restricting things purely because you don't like it. You are setting a precedent that can come back to bite you.
If we are only going to allow people liberty that is deemed virtuous then the first obvious question becomes, "who gets to decide was is or isn't virtuous ?" And if your answer is the majority then you have basically rendered our constitution worthless by Inventing a means by which liberty is at the mercy of mob rule.
The best index to a person’s character is (a) how he treats people who can’t do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can’t fight back.
- Abigail van Buren
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: Todd1700]
#1109096
10/12/14 12:04 PM
10/12/14 12:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,404
Gainesville, Florida
Ian
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,404
Gainesville, Florida
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Let me site an example Straycat that I think answers your question.
We have nazis in this country. Skinheads too. I hate what they are. I despise the venom they spew. It sickens me that after thousands of Americans had to give their lives in WW2 to stop nazi Germany that there could be Americans that would want to associate tnemselves with such an organization. I see nothing virtuous about them or the things they espouse. Do you? Yet as long as they harm no one I will defend their right to be what they are and say what they say. As American citizens that liberty is their birth right and is not dependent apon whether I like them or not. It is a slippery slope to start restricting things purely because you don't like it. You are setting a precedent that can come back to bite you.
If we are only going to allow people liberty that is deemed virtuous then the first obvious question becomes, "who gets to decide was is or isn't virtuous ?" And if your answer is the majority then you have basically rendered our constitution worthless by Inventing a means by which liberty is at the mercy of mob rule. Well I sure hope you dont drive a chevy or a Ford since both companies gave money to the nazi's... Oh please don't tell my you drive a Toyota then.
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: Ian]
#1109105
10/12/14 12:14 PM
10/12/14 12:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,943
Pine Hill, Al
Todd1700
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,943
Pine Hill, Al
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Let me site an example Straycat that I think answers your question.
We have nazis in this country. Skinheads too. I hate what they are. I despise the venom they spew. It sickens me that after thousands of Americans had to give their lives in WW2 to stop nazi Germany that there could be Americans that would want to associate tnemselves with such an organization. I see nothing virtuous about them or the things they espouse. Do you? Yet as long as they harm no one I will defend their right to be what they are and say what they say. As American citizens that liberty is their birth right and is not dependent apon whether I like them or not. It is a slippery slope to start restricting things purely because you don't like it. You are setting a precedent that can come back to bite you.
If we are only going to allow people liberty that is deemed virtuous then the first obvious question becomes, "who gets to decide was is or isn't virtuous ?" And if your answer is the majority then you have basically rendered our constitution worthless by Inventing a means by which liberty is at the mercy of mob rule. Well I sure hope you dont drive a chevy or a Ford since both companies gave money to the nazi's... Oh please don't tell my you drive a Toyota then. If I have supported nazis with my car purchases it was unknowingly and never my intention.
The best index to a person’s character is (a) how he treats people who can’t do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can’t fight back.
- Abigail van Buren
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: hunting13]
#1109197
10/12/14 01:45 PM
10/12/14 01:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
straycat
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
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Todd, we also have atheist evolutionists. I am all for liberty to express views and etc... That includes you. We very much agree.
Liberty isn't a free for all, as you know. Order has been defined by custom and law.
But if those same atheist wanted to change the definition of a sacred institution by legislative measures...I'd oppose it.
I don't care what gays do in private or in public. I draw the line at changing marriage.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: straycat]
#1109208
10/12/14 01:52 PM
10/12/14 01:52 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
R_H_Clark
Leupold Pro Staff
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Leupold Pro Staff
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
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Todd, we also have atheist evolutionists. I am all for liberty to express views and etc... That includes you. We very much agree.
Liberty isn't a free for all, as you know. Order has been defined by custom and law.
But if those same atheist wanted to change the definition of a sacred institution by legislative measures...I'd oppose it.
I don't care what gays do in private or in public. I draw the line at changing marriage. I agree with you, in that I hate to see marriage lowered to the union of two men or two women. However, What makes marriage sacred is the entering into a covenant witnessed and established by God. If ministers refuse to marry them as they should, then the institution of sacred marriage is preserved. Even if some charlatan does preform a religious ceremony for homosexuals, it is not recognized by God anyway, so sacred marriage is still preserved. I not for gay marriage but I don't think we can do anything to stop it except try to show people a better way and remain lights in a darkening world.
Last edited by R_H_Clark; 10/12/14 01:56 PM.
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: hunting13]
#1109228
10/12/14 02:13 PM
10/12/14 02:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
straycat
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
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Perhaps.
I'll be made out to be a liberty hating non conservative because I know there are certain things a nation should protect with priority. Innocent life and marriage as man and woman are two.
I don't want much government and wish most of the laws were repealed. But lord if you are anti gay marriage, the pro liberty folks get riled up. Fascinating.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: hunting13]
#1109230
10/12/14 02:14 PM
10/12/14 02:14 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 22,115
colbert county
cartervj
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 22,115
colbert county
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Once marriage is redefined, Churches will be sued just like the vendors that refused service to gay marriages.
Will Churches be forced against their will to perform such marriages. We've seen how the liberals lied about ObamaCare/Religion/abortion, it is begin FORCED upon Churches.
Liberal progressives love to force their values on those they oppose, all the while saying it is for the common good.
“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: straycat]
#1109235
10/12/14 02:20 PM
10/12/14 02:20 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
R_H_Clark
Leupold Pro Staff
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Leupold Pro Staff
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
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Perhaps.
I'll be made out to be a liberty hating non conservative because I know there are certain things a nation should protect with priority. Innocent life and marriage as man and woman are two.
I don't want much government and wish most of the laws were repealed. But lord if you are anti gay marriage, the pro liberty folks get riled up. Fascinating. Don't get me wrong. I'm against gay marriage but I don't think you can legislate morality without going down an even more destructive path. When government defines morality, we may not like the definition. What we need is moral leaders and Christian men and women who lobby to elect moral leaders. America needs to be lead in the right direction, not forced into it.
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: hunting13]
#1109333
10/12/14 03:31 PM
10/12/14 03:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
straycat
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,323
Chelsea, AL
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I agree wholeheartedly. Legislative action is a bad idea generally.
But morality has always been codified and legislated. Natural rights are God's morals. Laws to protect life, liberty and property are moral in nature as they deal with right and wrong.
Ultimately, true liberty always depends on honor, virtue, and moral uprightness in order to be lasting.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: whack-n-stack]
#1109602
10/12/14 05:52 PM
10/12/14 05:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,943
Pine Hill, Al
Todd1700
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,943
Pine Hill, Al
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Will Churches be forced against their will to perform such marriages I would think not. Churches are private entities with voluntary membership and as such would be free to conduct their business as would any private club. I'm sure some churches would perform them voluntarily but I can't see how any could be forced legally to do so. The issue is whether gays are entitled to be married in a manner that is officially and legally recognized. I fully understand that religious people see marriage as a spiritual thing sanctioned by God and consider the exchange of vows standing in front a preacher as the moment you are married. I do respect that. But from a purely technical and legal standpoint you are married when you and your wife sign that marriage license. I can see how a church can legally deny them the ceremony. I can't see how as a society we can legally deny them the license.
The best index to a person’s character is (a) how he treats people who can’t do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can’t fight back.
- Abigail van Buren
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: Todd1700]
#1109802
10/13/14 03:42 AM
10/13/14 03:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 22,115
colbert county
cartervj
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 22,115
colbert county
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Will Churches be forced against their will to perform such marriages I would think not. Churches are private entities with voluntary membership and as such would be free to conduct their business as would any private club. I'm sure some churches would perform them voluntarily but I can't see how any could be forced legally to do so. The issue is whether gays are entitled to be married in a manner that is officially and legally recognized. I fully understand that religious people see marriage as a spiritual thing sanctioned by God and consider the exchange of vows standing in front a preacher as the moment you are married. I do respect that. But from a purely technical and legal standpoint you are married when you and your wife sign that marriage license. I can see how a church can legally deny them the ceremony. I can't see how as a society we can legally deny them the license. What about those PRIVATE businesses being sued for refusing service on THEIR moral grounds? As a private business can one not deny service? Once again we see legislation trying to force someone to go against their religion. The Leftist Elite have a deeper underlying reason to push this through, they could actually care less about those they claim to try to be helping.
Last edited by cartervj; 10/13/14 03:42 AM.
“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: R_H_Clark]
#1109824
10/13/14 03:58 AM
10/13/14 03:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,170
Fairhope
bamachem
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,170
Fairhope
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Perhaps.
I'll be made out to be a liberty hating non conservative because I know there are certain things a nation should protect with priority. Innocent life and marriage as man and woman are two.
I don't want much government and wish most of the laws were repealed. But lord if you are anti gay marriage, the pro liberty folks get riled up. Fascinating. I get riled up any and every time somebody wants to use "morals" or any other excuse to add more restriction to a free person's life. Every man, woman, and child should have the liberty to pursue their version of happiness, not your version of it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm against gay marriage but I don't think you can legislate morality without going down an even more destructive path. When government defines morality, we may not like the definition.
What we need is moral leaders and Christian men and women who lobby to elect moral leaders. America needs to be lead in the right direction, not forced into it. Exactly. It's like trying to ban guns to stop gun violence. Roughly 80% of all gun violence is perpetrated by black males. More than 75% of the victims of these crimes are black males. How about stopping the violence by having the black communities stand up for family values and teach their children to respect life and each other instead of going after guns? The root cause is not guns, but it is the black community itself. The root cause you see with homosexuality is not going to be fixed by disallowing gay marriage. What is the root problem?
MOLON LABE
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: cartervj]
#1109828
10/13/14 03:59 AM
10/13/14 03:59 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,170
Fairhope
bamachem
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,170
Fairhope
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What about those PRIVATE businesses being sued for refusing service on THEIR moral grounds? As a private business can one not deny service?
Once again we see legislation trying to force someone to go against their religion.
The Leftist Elite have a deeper underlying reason to push this through, they could actually care less about those they claim to try to be helping. No such thing as a private business. Businesses are open to customers, and therefore are not private.
MOLON LABE
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: bamachem]
#1109846
10/13/14 04:20 AM
10/13/14 04:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,547
Panhandle Florida
PaschalBD
Used to be TiderBD
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Used to be TiderBD
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,547
Panhandle Florida
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Somebody lock this mofo thread up!
A servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.
USAF Veteran
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Re: Gays getting married
[Re: bamachem]
#1109979
10/13/14 06:09 AM
10/13/14 06:09 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 22,115
colbert county
cartervj
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 22,115
colbert county
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What about those PRIVATE businesses being sued for refusing service on THEIR moral grounds? As a private business can one not deny service?
Once again we see legislation trying to force someone to go against their religion.
The Leftist Elite have a deeper underlying reason to push this through, they could actually care less about those they claim to try to be helping. No such thing as a private business. Businesses are open to customers, and therefore are not private. No Shirt No Shoes No Service doesn't exist? and Bars have to keep serving the slobbering drunk?
Last edited by cartervj; 10/13/14 06:10 AM.
“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
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