Nighthunter,



The decisions being made should remain within the limits of current law. That's what people like Dr. D, Brian, and goobler have a problem with, and that's why they catch flack in the Serious Hunting section of this forum.

Being a professional biologists is one thing. Pushing a political agenda that unlawfully restricts the right to hunt is another matter altogether. Make no mistake about that.

Which surveys were those, obviously multiples, hence the "every". Let me know where I can find them please?

Wow, that's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. And by the way, don't think Brian left b/c of "catching flack", I think he just got sick of all the b.s. Anyway, thanks for the laugh...

Pot to Kettle,

The evidence I used to support my statements are the annual reports that are available on the DCNR website.
2009-2010 Survey Report

Where is the evidence you have to support your statement that "... now, due to liberal limits, greed and misuse of property we have no choice but to manipulate if you want to help the wildlife where you hunt."


Edit:

Further review of the DCNR surveys during the years that the number of bucks and does killed are reported separately show that the highest number of bucks killed per hunter from 1984 thru 2006 was 1.2 bucks per hunter.

That's a maximum of 1.2 bucks killed per hunter with a season bag limit of 110 per hunter. I call that moderation, Mr. Kettle.

Also: with a statewide deer population of around 1.7 million, there should be a third or more killed each year to maintain those numbers. In 2004 when the debates for a 98% reduction in bag limits heated up, the highest number of deer on record were killed in Alabama. That record number still fell short of the recommended numbers that are said to be needed to keep the deer population from growing.

The number of deer killed each season has been dropping steadily each year since 2004. We were 278,000 deer short of killing a third of 1.7 million deer at the end of the season in 2010 due to a lack of moderation in setting bag limits.

Now, where's your supporting source of information?

Exactly TD.

This is very true for properties that their neighbors don't practice sound doe management. I have that very problem. The more we kill, the more we have and our fawn production isn't out of this world by any means. I'd say it's average.

Now, if you shoot a bunch of does and your neighbors all shoot a bunch of does (like say a well ran QDM Coop) then it's possible to knock them back and keep them at a managable level......I guess. lol

Problem then arises with "pressure" on the does. If every doe within a 10,000 acre area is targeted, it won't take long before you can shoot more older bucks than you can shoot older does.

That's when (and I found out the hard way) you have to learn to hunt again. BSK was very instrumental in my hunting career in the fact that he preached years ago here and TNdeer that once you begin this type of management, you must throw everything you have ever learned about deer hunting out the window. Shooting older bucks and pressured does is not anywhere near the same as shooting 1.5yr old bucks. He was 110% right.

Hard to explain what I do differently but it's the small things from what I've gathered.

There are some things I've learned the last 5/6 years on our property.

1: You can't kill to many does, especially if your neighbors don't shoot any.

2: More does DOES NOT mean more bucks. The more does we shoot, the more older bucks show up. Literally! Our best years shooting does is always followed by more older bucks, many that were not there as 2.5 or 3.5yr olds. From what I understand through reading and talking to biologist, deer will always want to be in their natural enviroment. Thousands of years for the species has taught deer that 1:1-1:1.2 is natural so the more natural your herd can be, the more it attracts other deer.

Some bucks leave regardless of your doe numbers. Deer are weird. lol

3: Does, older does especially, are harder to kill now but....it will make you learn to hunt them which in turn seems to make you more likely to encounter older bucks. It seems old deer all think alike.

Alright Ill take the bait.....
You already know where to find them.
The ones that have been discussed on here are the surveys by the ALDCNR
and
the other is the one that YOU brought to the table, I beleive from the AWF, that indicated that hunters averaged 1.32 bucks to every 3 does. Thats 132000 bucks to every 300000 does.
and
the other is the one(source unknown) YOU again pointed out that indicated the average was 1 buck to ever 1.2 doe killed, which you quickly dismissed by saying it could have been the reverse of that. You see Gobbler someone is paying attention to what you say.

Now let me say that if these numbers would have been reversed, with hunters killing more bucks than does, than I could understand the need to cut back on the number of bucks killed, and probably would have supported it. But they didnt. So Gobbler, help me out, besides moving us to a qdm state and a failed attempt to rein in the 4% of hunters who killed more than 3 bucks a year, what in these numbers did you see that caused you to support a 3 buck limit?

And BTW I am closer to my midlife crisis than to my youth and I dont ever remember there being an unlimited buck harvest.

I can assure you that it isn't the state's goal to reign in the 4% of hunters that kill 3 or more bucks.

It's a mind game.

When TN went from 11 bucks to 2 bucks in 1998 (and back to 3 in 1999) it had nothing to do with forcing folks to kill less bucks. Very few people shot 3 bucks a year anyway.

It was a mind game. More folks bought in to letting more bucks walk and shooting more does, even though they could still basically kill more bucks than they did anyway.

12 years later, it has worked.

I do agree with your points here... But the law should be changed so professionals do make those decisions, not those with political agendas. That said, money will always run the system, if the folks behind the big money have an agenda on deer hunting, it will never change

In a perfect world the ones who know the most should make the call and not let the minority rule the majority IMHO.

In our imperfect world, I prefer our constitutional republic over an elitist system of government. We just need to hold our representatives more accountable for their actions, especially when they delegate the authority we gave them to others. Repealing § 41-22-3(9)g.6 would be a good start.

Here we go with trying to be like TN again.



Maybe it's like ol' Slick Willie said, "it depends on what the definition of is is". So let's look at TN again. Here are the defintions in TN's regulations:



Looks to me like TN allows killing 3 or 4 bucks a day in some areas if you use the AL definition.

Here's what I came up with:
3 bucks with antlers 3" or less per day
Season 2009-2010:
Unit L Season
Nov. 21-Dec. 6
Dec. 19-Jan. 10, 2010
97 days X 3 = 291 young bucks per season plus the other 3 = 294 bucks per season


I believe our old bag limit in AL of 110 bucks per season may have seemed a bit more reasonable than TN if we had looked closer at the facts.

Well, you can kill 2 bucks a day in Alabama if you want. Button bucks are of course...bucks you know.

Of course, one can look at the numbers and see the percentage of "antlerless bucks" is so small in the TN harvest that it doesn't mount to a hill of beans.

This year, about 10,700 button bucks and antlerless bucks (those with 3" or less) were killed in TN. Total harvest was almost 163,000 deer. Around 80,000 were bucks and 75,000 was does. If you take out the Zone B counties, the doe and buck harvest was skewed more towards the does. Zone B has very few doe hunt opportunities.

You do the math on the % of button and those with 3" or less.

TN kills more older bucks than KY, IL, Iowa, ect, ect, ect. No doubt the headgear isn't the same but 2.5yr olds in that state are normally as big or bigger than TN's 4.5yr old bucks.

20% of Tennessee's buck harvest is 3.5yrs +

How many do they kill, or do they just pick them like beans?

20% of the total antlered harvest was 3.5+. Unlike Alabama, this is not a guess. These are percentages aquired from actual check stations by actual TWRA employees.

Only 41% of all bucks shot in TN this year was 1.5 years old.

Go to Tndeer.com and see some of the bucks they kill compared to the bucks that show up on this site. Based on what I've seen and read (hunter opinions, etc.) being like Tn. wouldn't be such a bad idea.

TNSwamper,



I tried figuring out your math. It don't add up. Does TN have it's own math system or something?

80,000 + 75,000 don't equal 163,000. If you add 10,700 also, it still don't add up to 163,000.

I think I'll just keep hunting in Alabama.

TD,



Why should I? What happens in TN doesn't matter to me the least bit.

I'm happy to compare the bucks I kill to the bucks other hunters kill on the property we lease. Comparing them to bucks two or three counties away doesn't even interest me. If killing record bucks was my goal, I would have found a better place to hunt years ago instead of being happy with what we have close to home where I grew up. You can have my share of TN hunting.

I don't have anything against people in TN if that's what they want. My dad was born and raised in TN, and I have lot's of relatives that still live there. I was raised in Alabama, and I like to hunt at home.

Out of curiosity, If you want to kill deer like are in Tennessee, why don't you hunt in Tennessee? The same would go for Illinois, Missouti, Kansas, Ohio, Texas, etc. Or, at the very least set up management plans to meet YOUR EXPECTATIONS on the property that YOU CONTROL. Seems pretty simple to me.

The point I was trying to make was that Tennessee is a bordering state and as far as I know doesn't have anything that Alabama doesn't have (habitat wise) that would give them an advantage in producing more quality bucks (not record bucks). However, they have had check in stations, split seasons and relatively restrictive buck limits for years now and I think they have done a good job in educating their hunters on the advantages of being more selective in what they shoot. In my opinion this is evident by looking at the number of good bucks Tn. has produced lately and as Swamper was saying the growing percentage of 3.5 year old bucks and declining percentage of yearling bucks. Educating hunters is a bi-product of state imposed restrictions. Split seasons, buck limits, antler restrictions, tagging systems, check in stations and zones are all aspects of a system that creates more knowledge, awareness and responsibility. I know to some these are just a bunch of things that infringe on "their rights" but I see a lot of these as necessary measures to help manage, track and protect our wildlife. I also think it's ignorant to completely dismiss the success of a neighboring state just b/c it's "another state".

Well, I reckon it's because we don't hunt for the same reason that we don't see eye to eye on this highly educated mangement plan you've got. I started hunting when I didn't have to go to school.

I didn't go hunting to get more education. I went because I liked to hunt wild animals. I tried the highfalutin educated manager thingy, and I decided hunting was a lot more fun. That don't make me ignorant. It just means I don't think like you do.

"It just means I don't think like you do"

Well now there is something we can agree on.

I guess I'm the type that just likes to learn and try to do things better, regardless of what it is. Not sure where the highly educated mngt. plan thing came in to the conversation, but what ever. I do find it a little ironic that you insinuate that you are just a good ol boy that likes to hunt and cares nothing about learning/ education, knowledge,etc. when it comes to hunting regs, stats, etc, but yet you quote more stats, reports, meeting minutes and the such than anyone on this site. As a person that hates big govt I actually somewhat respect your point of view and understand that regardless of the cost some people just do not want more gov't intervention but just b/c I don't agree and just b/c I actually enjoy managing habitat and watching bucks get older before I shoot them doesn't mean that I'm highfalutin nor does it mean that you enjoy hunting anymore than I do, nor does it mean that I only care about shooting "record bucks". All that would be what you call assumptions with no back up. Anyway, I'm tired of arguing.