Im not sure where you work, but in the counties of Monroe, Wilcox, Marengo, Clark, Baldwin, Escambia, and Mobile, translocated, water soluble and soil sterilant herbicides are used very commonly. Usually in Spray for or in a solution or Solid form that is applied to the base of undesired vegetation.

I've lost many a turkey hole to modern timber management practices. For me personally, I don't think a pine plantation does much for turkeys. Those that survive in them do so in spite of and not because of, IMO.

First, we are talking landscape level. You guys may be interested to know over 60% of land ownership in this state is by the private sector.

Second, nothing used in timber management kills insects in the woods.

Third, most forestry herbicides are selective and or limited in control, plus those used for mid rotation stands do not harm legumes, and mid rotation releases are known to be very beneficial to wildlife.

The southwest part of the state has the most intensive timber management, and the highest turkey population on a landscape level. Ask someone from Morgan and Marshall County, where a fraction of pine stands exist, compared to beautiful fields and hardwoods if they would trade turkey density with the pine belt. Ask the Ag country of Southeast AL if they would like a few pine belt turkeys.

You are barking up the wrong tree here. I probably can't change your mind. But I do have a good memory. You posted some pics one Spring of a bunch of turkey in some managed pine stands that I actually thought looked too thick for a lot of turkey activity. You hunt in one of the counties you mentioned, and say you have plenty of birds.

Population studies aren't limited to a 40 acre 5 year old pine plantation. It's a landscape level. And the freaking pine belt you mentioned is doing just fine.

Just stop blaming easy targets. You are wrong.

I use to kill a limit of turkeys every year in pine plantations.

I hear ya!

TDD just called you a liar, though. Don't take it personal.

I'm an evil forester, too. . My first job out of college was spraying forestry herbicides.

Correct, we use herbicides, but not insecticides. I work in every one of the counties mentioned and there are still plenty of insects for turkeys to eat. Do you honestly believe that no forest management would be better for turkeys ?

Oh. OK.

I'm not a turkey hunter so...

Have any of you that have noticed a decline in the turkey population noticed if poultry litter is being applied to fields in your area? I know there's a whole lot more litter being trucked out of this area and into other areas.

I just wish IP would burn their stuff,when Union Camp sold out to them the burning stopped,that's been over 15 years ago,other than that,our turkey population is doing fine with current timber management

My uncle owns 8 chicken houses along with cattle,he spreads his chicken chit on all his pastures and they are full of turkeys every spring,hasn't affected the birds around his place

Well, TDD, we helped revive a thread that seemed to be dying down.

Been a long day and I'm too tired to answer everything you said, but I'll try on a few issues:

You said:

>>>I ask you this PCP... Do you not agree there is less habitat for turkeys in Alabama now, than say 20 years ago? <<<

I don't travel the whole state and don't think I'm really qualified to answer, but I doubt it. People have been moaning all my life about how timber practices would destroy turkey hunting. I moved to Wilcox County in 1970 and every turkey hunter I met was furious with MacMillan-Bloedel because of all the clearcutting they were doing. The common theme was that turkey hunting would soon be ruined. I thought it too.

Well, it wasn't. Some areas are now growing their third loblolly forest and the turkeys are still there. I also see a lot more areas being converted to longleaf and managed on a much longer rotation, which is good for turkeys. My main forest is 35 years old, and I haven't cut it mainly because I want to keep it good turkey habitat. I believe there are more people like me than ever, and one of the reasons we are willing to do it is because of the generous limit. Take away that limit, and many people might not be willing to manage that way. Charles Kelley often stated this was their reasoning for generous limits for deer and turkey - give the landowner the right to manage their resources and he believed they would do a good job of it. States that took a more socialistic view were way behind us in getting huntable populations.

>>>I try to look at the big picture. More hunters + more predators - habitat = declining turkey population.<<<

If that is true, then by far the most effective way to reduce the harvest in those areas is to shorten the season. Limiting what hunters can do in an area with a thriving population because the population is down in an area hundreds of miles away doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm thankful the AL DCNR already realizes this and does manage different populations by season length. I hope they will continue this practice and not punish hunters in other areas with good populations.

>>>To address your next point, you say there is no need to limit gobbler harvest unless there is a shortage or gobblers. Enough so that there are not enough gobblers to breed all of the hens.
Well to that i say this. With no data on that being collected, how do you know that is not the case already? How do you know all of the hens are being bred?<<<<

I said that no place that I had ever hunted had a population get so low that the gobblers couldn't breed the hens. That's because I have always seen or heard gobblers right to the end of the season. You can be sure that if I heard them, then any hen that still needed to be bred would hear them too. There are plenty of studies that show it doesn't take many gobblers to breed all the hens in a population. Gobbler posted in this forum about a researcher that documented a single gobbler that bred 25 hens in a single day, and hens have to bred only once. But once again, if this is a problem somewhere, then shorten the season in that area. That's the sure way to limit the harvest.

>>>What you say is somewhat true. I do think 3 is fair. And a need or want for anything more than that just boils down to hunters being greedy<<<<

I think this is the real reason that some are proposing a lower limit. Its all about a personal feeling that nobody should be allowed to kill over a certain number they have in their mind, and its easy to demonize those who would as being "greedy."

I'm as capable of anyone of falling to greed, but I really don't see myself as being greedy if I kill 5 AL Spring gobblers. That's been the limit all my hunting life and the AL turkey population has thrived with that limit. I sure can't see any evidence that its damaged the population.

I spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours every year working to improve the turkey habitat on my farm. I'm confident I produce a lot more than 5 turkeys every year, and others are able to also benefit from my work, and I'm happy for them. How can you arrive at a figure of 3 being ok and 5 is "greedy?" I just can't see your logic in that.

I usually shoot one deer a year; that's all we need to eat. I also kill a few doves and a few squirrels, and try my best to kill my limit of gobblers. We eat what I shoot, and that's all I take from the land. From your posts, I'd think you likely take a lot more game from the land than I do. How many ducks do you have to kill in a season to reach the point of greed? Are turkeys somehow different? Maybe I am greedy, but I just can't see it that way.

But greed is definitely a bad thing; I'll sure agree on that.

So is jealousy. Maybe that's for another post.

I suspect the limit argument is a moot point for me. I struggled to get a limit last season and don't know if I will ever be in good enough health to do it again. But I really do believe that the AL system of turkey management is the best in the nation, and I'd hate to see it destroyed because of politics.

A good evening to all!

Good read PCP. Thanks for the post

As a forester and turkey hunter I will say that the densest turkey populations I have ever seen on a regular basis were in intensively Managed IP pine plantations in Baldwin County and in intensively managed Weyerhauser pine plantations in Clarke County. These were large tracts with the same forest management practices applied across the whole tract. IP tracts in this area of Baldwin County were infamous for having crappy SMZ's but the turkeys flourished nonetheless. With that said, I really don't think that forest management practices in general should be targeted as the reason for the decline in turkey numbers. I also believe that if I have enough turkeys to kill five, then I am most likely killing the surplus. If the DCNR drops the limit to three, I fear that they world not increase back to five when the populations were to increase. I say leave it at five.

Looked like an interesting thread. No reason to comment though, just wanted to make sure PCP was posting good info as I have taught him over the years. Good posts PCP! You are carrying the biological response well. Carry on

I wondered where you were - you need to join in. You may have taught me well, but I don't have any credentials. Well, except when it comes to the greed and jealousy part. Guess I'm supposed to know about that.

Agree 100%.

And yes, I've said 10 times that we have a solid turkey population where i hunt, and it is due to the fact that for the last 10 years there has been very little cutting or spraying on this property. Unlike areas surrounding us. But ill also say this, i drive 2 hours to hunt here because there are very few turkeys around my home, where there used to be an extremely high population. Nothing has changed in that area other than timber management practices. So you tell me what happened to all the birds if it wasnt timber practices and/or over harvesting? Im sure preadtors hurt, but the area i hunt now has a much higher predator population...

I never said a turkey couldn't live in pines. A turkey can live in some tough environments. But its impossible for them to sustain such a high population in pines that lack the food that they once had. If you are trying to tell me that current timber practices aren't targeting the killing of under brush and small vegetation, then YES im calling you a liar.

Our property, like alot of others in the counties i mentioned, was bought by an investment group last year. They came in and cut half of the timber, sprayed the new growth, and dropped pelletized herbicides via helicopter in the 5-15 year old pine stands. I know because I was here watching them do it. Now ALL undergrowth is dead. And in all honesty i know it hurts the deer worse than the turkeys, but it definitely hurts ALL wildlife. So no, you will not change my mind.

Hell 3toe I figured you'd like it. Then you could say you limited out or at least came close!

No! If the limit was only 3, I would be done every year by 3/20!! That would make a boring April!!

Seriously, leave it where it is.

Until I started hunting this way I rarely had a chance to kill a limit. The more land I have spread out in different areas the more opportunities I have to kill a limit.