Groovy!

.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4d8PHDG4yE

Popcorn don't apply hombre.

Just joking around. Lighten up pansy.....

Glad you didn't tap out I enjoy your insight. Question: How many 4 1/2 yr old bucks have you checked in since you have been there at Black Warrior?

ok.

yeah Matt, ya pansy....LOL

Fifty three bucks over age 2. Sixteen of those have been 4-6 years old. Two of those 16 have scored 140 or higher. The majority of those 4-6 year olds have fallen into the 115-125" category.

That is a relatively average year. Last season I had several 150-170" deer brought in. This year's data and last year's are way different. Last year was a well above average year though.

I'll show you a pansy old man.

What do you think was the reason, if there is one, for last year's abnormalities? Do these type things go in cycles?

It seems to cycle. I'll say this though, there are several 150-180" deer walking around as I type this. They just haven't been dropped yet. If they don't real soon, they'll see next year if they survive the summer, poachers, and vehicles. We had all the variables this year to grow big deer(climate and weather wise, as well as low harvest last year), and they are here. They just haven't been killed yet. I have seen several grown uns killed on USFS land off the WMA. None of them have been the deer I know exists on the WMA though.

I knew you hadn't been at the WMA long enough to really trend it out. I didn't know what kind of records that the last guy left you. It'll be interesting to see how it trends while you're there. I hoping that one day there'll be so many 150" deer on the WMA that even I can kill one.

So on the on an average year 13 percent of bucks over 4 scored better than 140? A better than average year around 20.

yep, that coulda been a goodern 3 years ago!!

That's bucks killed and reported, which is way different than what the OP was asking. If you looked at trailcam pics by age class and averaged scores it wouldn't be 13% over 140" in most places.

Matt good to see you stuck around pal. I enjoy reading the information you share and your personal insight on big Bama bucks.

I'm gonna unscientifically guess a mid to low single digit on average.?.?

Deer hunter's in the south here is a good article I read today. Will be in 3 different posts.
Genetics
First, it is the doe, (not the buck) that contributes more of the genetic characteristics to the offspring regarding antlers characteristics. Until we get some way of looking at a doe, and can tell what kind of bucks she produces, genetic management will always be somewhat lame.

Second it is hard for most people to identify good genetics because the size of a deer's rack is affected greatly by the deer's age. If you have ever shot a spike that was chasing a doe in the hopes of keeping it from breeding, then you probably don't understand completely how to manage your deer. I am not saying you shouldn't have shot that deer, just that it was probably shot for the wrong reason.

Let me explain about Southern deer. Where I hunt in Alabama, the rut occurs very late in the year, usually in early January; therefore, the fawns are born very late. This means that that 8 point 1 1/2-year-old deer up north had 2 or more months extra to grow that set of antlers than the same 1 1/2-year-old deer in the South. So our 1 1/2-year-old deer will never be able to compete with the 1 1/2-year-old deer from up north. Now, genetically that spike deer could have been superior genetically to the eight point in Minnesota. You see, an individual buck's antlers are affected much more by age and nutrition than by genetics.

I don't think there are any 2 1/2-year-old Boone and Crockett bucks registered. If there are then it is at least very rare. As the deer age, the difference in antler size due to this buck being born early get less and less significant. It is not possible to make an educated guess about the genetic makeup of a buck until it is at least 2 1/2-years-old. Ever wonder why older deer have larger antlers than young deer? When a deer is young it is growing. It's body weight is increasing and this requires nutrients. Only the left over nutrients go to the antlers. So the younger and therefore faster growing deer need more of those nutrients for growing bones and hair. It is only after the deer's body growth slows that there are enough nutrients left over for a large rack. I have personally only seen one buck that had spike antlers that was older than 1 1/2-years-old. So obviously almost all of those spikes have the potential to be more than just spikes.

If you are still not convinced that you can't improve the genetics of the deer that are sired each year then maybe this will. Ever since modern deer hunting arose we have been selecting the best for death and the worst for procreation. If two bucks walk out, much more often then not the large racked buck is shot. If a spike walks out at 250 yards, there is a good chance that you will think it's a doe. So for at least 100 years we have been selecting the worst genetics for our deer herd. But in spite of this the genetics have remained pretty much unchanged. So if you think your hunting club can improve what 100+ years has not been able to accomplish (change the genetics) then you are sadly mistaken.

So the point is, be happy with the genetics you have or move to another area. It's that simple. Sorry for the rambling nature of this section, I just don't want to spend too much time talking about a largely pointless endeavor.

Post #2 Which I think is most important one.

AGE - Ok here is the real subject of deer management that will have the largest effect: age. Age, bar none, is the single most important factor in determining how large a deer's rack is going to be. To consistently kill large antlered bucks you must be in an area that has older deer. So to get larger antlered bucks it is quite simple to figure out which deer the hunters in your area should shoot and which not to shoot. If it's not big then don't shoot.

Ok, that's the easy part. Now getting that as an actual practice in your area is the tough part. Let me explain, just in case a hunter from one of our Northern state's is reading. In the south we have very long deer seasons. Bow season is open from the first week of October till the end of January. The gun season is from mid-November to Late January. That gives us southern deer hunters just enough time to kill almost every buck in the state. The last hunting club that I was in was killing 80% of the bucks each year. That's why I got out of that hunting club. I know it was 80% because we kept records of the slaughter. It made me sick because it had the most potential of any place I have ever hunted.

In the south most 1 1/2-year-old deer have about 4 points, so if you are killing most of the bucks each year, guess what you are killing? That's right spikes, forkhorns and small six points. So to kill larger buck we must stop killing the 1 1/2-year-old deer. It's that simple.

Unless you control a large tract of land then there is a good chance that you will not be able to have much of an impact on the deer herds age structure. There is a rule of thumb that you need at least 2000 acres before you can manage for big bucks. There is a lot of truth to this statement but there is also alot wrong with this generalization also. For the record let's just say that the more land you control the easier it is for your management plan to have positive measurable results.

Since most leases do not comprise many thousands of acres this article will try to address management from the more common or typical person's perspective.

Obviously, if you let all 1 1/2-year-old deer live you will get the best results down the road. But that is not practical for most places. With the rising cost of land and leases that approach is simply more restrictive than most people are willing to put up with. So, many clubs have some rules that will restrict the harvest of younger deer. Here is a list of some common approaches.

* 1. No spikes are to be killed.
* 2. Nothing smaller than a 6 point.
* 3. 8 point or better.
* 4. Deer must have a certain size spread.
* 5. You are not allowed to shoot a deer smaller than one you have already taken.
* 6. Two bucks per person.

Each of these above methods has its advantages and disadvantages. I am not going to endorse any one particular method as the best. There just is not one best method. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

You must tailor your rules to your needs. For instance, the last club I left would not have really been helped much by going to a no spikes rule. Only a few spikes were killed each year. Most of our 1 1/2-year-old deer had more than spikes. So the benefit would have been small. The point I am trying to make is that every place is different so you must tailor your rules to your area.

Let me elaborate a little on some things that might help you decide what you want to do. Since deer don't distribute themselves randomly and evenly across the land, you might be helped by knowing a couple of things about how a deer sets up its living area. First remember the big bucks don't set up shop in the best areas for food and cover. Why don't they you ask? Remember, even that 18" 10 point was once a small puny buck. When a buck is born it first lives with its mother. The mother will eventually drive the youngster off. This is when it sets up what will be its home for the rest of its short life. So when it sets up its house, it is at the bottom of the pecking order. Also this is nature's way of dispersing the young bucks away from their mothers to prevent inbreeding. So that spike you passed up early in the hunting season could very well locate off of your land.

But let's say you have put in a management plan and have a number of large bucks that call you land home. Here comes blow #2. That large buck that you saw all summer but has eluded you so far on your lease should be getting love sick soon and hopefully will make a mistake. Unfortunately when large bucks get in the mood they often become nomads of sort. So those meat hunters down the road could very well end up with your wall hanger in their freezer. Bucks tend to have very unique personalities just like people so don't lose all hope.

If you only learn one thing from this let it be that getting your neighbors involved in a quality management plan will yield more results than the most restrictive plan you could possibly implement on your land with no help from your neighbors.

So your neighbors aren't willing to do anything but shoot everything that moves! If that is the case there are a couple of things that you can do to help out the situation. First you must shoot does. Otherwise there will be no vacancies for new bucks to set up in. If your club shoots only big bucks and club 2 next door shoots everything including lots of does, guess what? All the bucks will live on their land. So you must shoot does unless you want to raise does so they can raise offspring for those outlaws next door.

You can also pull a fast one and make sure all does that are killed on your lease/land are killed near the center of your land. This is so that when a young buck sets up shop it will most likely be in the center of your land. This will minimize the time that he spends off of your land where he would be fair game.