Yup... I got it an email this morning...

These statistic are from the turkey's reported on the game check system... Granted, this is not a requirement so I know the number is skewed, but I guarantee it will have a direct reflection to determining bag limits.

Yek, so you are saying that several years ago people reported the same thing in areas of TN, and the birds have still not recovered?

I'm still of firm belief that hunters harvesting gobblers has basically zero effect on turkey populations. Nesting success is far more important in my opinion and that is controlled by factors such as weather, predators, and habitat. There's not much that can be done about the weather, but the other two factors can be managed to an extent.

I did the daily hunter survey this year and recorded all of my hunts, but did not receive the email for this survey. I hope that it helps the state biologists make good decisions for the management of the state's population. I just hope that they remember that our 5 bird limit has been around for years and we continue to boast one of the largest turkey populations in the nation. With that being said, I don't see how they could justify reducing the limit.

Matt, on a statewide level, how would you rate the nesting success over the past 2 or 3 years?

Same question to you Brandon in the years leading up to the decline in your area

Nest success can be negatively impacted if gobblers are harvested too soon. Personally, I think we have biological reasoning to shift some of the northern counties in the state back. North AL birds are still in winter flocks when south AL has already gone through spring green up and hens have already started nesting.

One thing to consider about the 5 bird limit. I'm not saying I'm for or against it. I'm in favor of allowing the take of as many as possible without losing hunter satisfaction or negatively impacting the resource. Heck I wish we could kill 10 a season. But obviously that's not very wise. We have more turkey hunters now than we did when the 5 bird limit started. We estimate fewer turkeys. Poult recruitment is declining statewide. If gobblers are being harvested before peak breeding by more hunters in a declining population I invite any of you to help me understand how that's not a negative scenario that will continue the decline. 5 birds may have been fine until we reached a certain threshold, and it may not be sustainable. These are some of the questions we have to answer and it is not easy. I think I've read or discussed nearly every mortality/survival, nest success, habitat use paper ever written on turkeys in the south. Some of these questions we can hopefully answer through the current research.

I'm going to say somewhere less than 2% kill a 5 bird limit.

For those of you who think gobbler harvest doesn't effect the population, what do you think would happen, if AL turned it's hunters loose for three consecutive seasons, in KS with a 5 bird limit. Serious question. I can already tell you the outcome would be devastating.

I think that AL's very liberal bag limit has provided the wrong perception to several generations of hunters who have come to think it doesn't matter. Kill as many as you want. Heck we have the highest population of any state in the country with the highest bag. Apparently we have done a great job convincing people that bag limits don't matter. We had a buck per day every day of the season for decades. Was that a good management practice? As populations and hunter desires change so will the regulations.

I do fully agree that the best way to change anything, if it's changed at all, is to push the season back or decrease the length.

According to the survey the last several years average harvest per hunter has remained at close to one per season. I don't have the information in front of me, but I promise to my name that I'm going to find out what percentage of people surveyed killed a limit. And that's all it will be. Only those surveyed. Also, I'd bet there are a lot of hunters you could add to the category if you included anyone who took 3 or more turkeys per year.

I know hunting pressure is far more than it used to be. Heck private land, IMO, is probably hunted harder than most public land, from what I have seen lately. I can drive around on private land and see more hunters than I'll check on a WMA hunt.

Keep another thing in mind. North AL is not what south AL is. Land is divided and broken into smaller ownerships, more development and disturbance, and a higher population of people. You south AL boys who are hunting several thousand contiguous acres have to realize that don't exist up here near as frequently as down there.

For those of you who think gobbler harvest doesn't effect the population, what do you think would happen, if AL turned it's hunters loose for three consecutive seasons, in KS with a 5 bird limit. Serious question. I can already tell you the outcome would be devastating.

I think that AL's very liberal bag limit has provided the wrong perception to several generations of hunters who have come to think it doesn't matter. Kill as many as you want. Heck we have the highest population of any state in the country with the highest bag. Apparently we have done a great job convincing people that bag limits don't matter. We had a buck per day every day of the season for decades. Was that a good management practice? As populations and hunter desires change so will the regulations.

I do fully agree that the best way to change anything, if it's changed at all, is to push the season back or decrease the length.

According to the survey the last several years average harvest per hunter has remained at close to one per season. I don't have the information in front of me, but I promise to my name that I'm going to find out what percentage of people surveyed killed a limit. And that's all it will be. Only those surveyed. Also, I'd bet there are a lot of hunters you could add to the category if you included anyone who took 3 or more turkeys per year.

I know hunting pressure is far more than it used to be. Heck private land, IMO, is probably hunted harder than most public land, from what I have seen lately. I can drive around on private land and see more hunters than I'll check on a WMA hunt.

Keep another thing in mind. North AL is not what south AL is. Land is divided and broken into smaller ownerships, more development and disturbance, and a higher population of people. You south AL boys who are hunting several thousand contiguous acres have to realize that don't exist up here near as frequently as down there.

I'm going to bed PCP.

I wasn't trying to compare turkey and deer management as being similar. Only trying to make a point that just because we've done a particular thing one way forever doesn't mean it was the best thing to do

More later. When I wake up I'm sure I'll have to spend most of Saturday replying.

Weather and nesting success was bad the last couple years.

For those of you who think gobbler harvest doesn't effect the population, what do you think would happen, if AL turned it's hunters loose for three consecutive seasons, in KS with a 5 bird limit. Serious question. I can already tell you the outcome would be devastating.

I think that AL's very liberal bag limit has provided the wrong perception to several generations of hunters who have come to think it doesn't matter. Kill as many as you want. Heck we have the highest population of any state in the country with the highest bag. Apparently we have done a great job convincing people that bag limits don't matter. We had a buck per day every day of the season for decades. Was that a good management practice? As populations and hunter desires change so will the regulations.

I do fully agree that the best way to change anything, if it's changed at all, is to push the season back or decrease the length.

According to the survey the last several years average harvest per hunter has remained at close to one per season. I don't have the information in front of me, but I promise to my name that I'm going to find out what percentage of people surveyed killed a limit. And that's all it will be. Only those surveyed. Also, I'd bet there are a lot of hunters you could add to the category if you included anyone who took 3 or more turkeys per year.

I know hunting pressure is far more than it used to be. Heck private land, IMO, is probably hunted harder than most public land, from what I have seen lately. I can drive around on private land and see more hunters than I'll check on a WMA hunt.

Keep another thing in mind. North AL is not what south AL is. Land is divided and broken into smaller ownerships, more development and disturbance, and a higher population of people. You south AL boys who are hunting several thousand contiguous acres have to realize that don't exist up here near as frequently as down there.

Nest success can be negatively impacted if gobblers are harvested too soon.

Please provide a citation with this statement

Heck I wish we could kill 10 a season. But obviously that's not very wise.

Please explain in real terms, not conjecture, why

Poult recruitment is declining statewide. If gobblers are being harvested before peak breeding by more hunters in a declining population I invite any of you to help me understand how that's not a negative scenario that will continue the decline.

I'll take that invitation! The FAR majority of hens are bred before almost anyone in Alabama has filled their 5 bird limit. Please explain how killing a 4th or 5th bird in the last week of April will effect the population. I usually see my first batch of poults in the last week of April. I am going to estimate peak hatch in the 2nd week of May to last of May (lets call it the 23rd). That makes peak breeding March 15 - shouldn't be much breeding impact by adult gobbler harvest by that day?!

I think I've read or discussed nearly every mortality/survival, nest success, habitat use paper ever written on turkeys in the south. Some of these questions we can hopefully answer through the current research. Than providing some citations shouldn't be a problem

For those of you who think gobbler harvest doesn't effect the population, what do you think would happen, if AL turned it's hunters loose for three consecutive seasons, in KS with a 5 bird limit. Serious question. I can already tell you the outcome would be devastating.

I think that AL's very liberal bag limit has provided the wrong perception to several generations of hunters who have come to think it doesn't matter. Kill as many as you want. Heck we have the highest population of any state in the country with the highest bag. Apparently we have done a great job convincing people that bag limits don't matter. We had a buck per day every day of the season for decades. Was that a good management practice? As populations and hunter desires change so will the regulations.

Its so easy for someone to sit at there desk and assume this and that on how many turkeys they are and make up 100% fake facts about turkeys/deer.

PCP you are right.

Doing well PCP, but I couldn't stand it anymore

Gobbler you do understand I hope, of all people, that what occurs in central and south AL is not what occurs in north AL.

If i get one a year i am happy i dont need to kill 5 , i understand some people live for it and i have no problem with it . I feel like predators are more detremental to lost turkey population than hunters are , i know if you kill 5 well thats 5 less than you had but God provides enough wildlife to replace what we harvest but we do need to manage what we have .
I personally am worried more about coyotes i would rather find more ways to get rid of them than anything else , they are a big problem and kill way more deer and turkey than people realize .

According to SEAFWA, they claim several researchers have found that opening of spring season prior to initiation of nesting can lead to reduced recruitment through direct mortality of female wild turkeys.

Also, intensive male turkey harvest during spring could result in decreased recruitment if it occurs prior to nest initiation and has resulted in low male turkey abundance or disturbed breeding activity.

How's that Bankhead? Am I just making facts up in an office, because you know that's what all biologist do right?

For both PCP and Gobbler, what would you think if AU(not MSState), since you like throwing that in there, provided a scenario through a mathematical formula that included season lengths, different bags, real hunter mortality, real poult recruitment, real incidental hen harvest, real natural mortality, real hunter satisfaction, and predicted the population growth or decline over decades for each scenario, AND the results that were scientifically predicted suggested that a change in bag limits or season structure was needed? I throw in the term real data, meaning it was collected in AL by real hunters and biologists who spend time in the real world. (Bankhead that's for you).

Now what if the data suggested no change was needed? Yay!!

For some reason y'all have the idea that the state wants to reduce the limit. I'm not sure where y'all have concluded that. We are only conducting the research to see IF it makes a difference and is needed. I've already said I'm for killing as many as possible if it's sustainable. I'm only asking questions that need to be asked, and doing the research answers them.

Also, since the state agency has been given the task of managing the resource for the benefit of all users, what if a majority of hunters were in favor of a reduced bag? I've talked to far more in north AL that are in favor than the opposite. That is a fact. I've also talked to more in south AL who are opposed. So there are regional differences.

Gobbler, I found time for you.

Greater illegal hen mortality has been associated with earlier opening dates (Normal et al. 2001), and substantial illegal hen mortality has occurred in areas when spring turkey season coincided with peak breeding (Kimmel and Kurzejeski 1985).

Other studies have shown considerable hen mortality as it relates to earlier opening dates (Wright and Speake 1975, Williams and Austin 1988, Davis et all 1995).

Mean nest incubation initiation is April 20-30 for south and central Al and as late as May 1-7 for north Al (Whitaker 2013). Meaning laying began approximately two weeks earlier.

On Thomas WMA in 1980, Everett determined average hatch as May 22-28, and ranged from May 1-June 24.

Peak gobbling periods in Clarke Co as determined by Davis in 1977 were April 5 and April 25. If peak gobbling coincides with breakup of winter flocks (first peak) and nest initiation (second), and that occurs in early April and late April in south AL, then it is certainly later in north AL.

Gardner found that the earliest hatch date was May 6 and 80% of poults hatched the last three weeks of may.

Metzler found that in North AL peak hatch occurred the first week of June.

I can go on and on and on.

Seems like to me people would be glad to have a state agency that's trying to lead in efforts of sound management, and get on top of a problem to correct it instead of falling behind and hitting the panic button once something catastrophic happens. Facts are that a lot of areas are experiencing a decline and poult recruitment is low and getting lower. Trying to figure out why and what to do about it is what we do.

Another observation of mine is the ones who seem to have the biggest problem with change are the ones happily killing their limit each season, not experiencing a decline, and are determined to do it their way regardless of what the research indicates, and with no regard for the resource.

Clem, we do have split seasons.

Heck, I noticed on Hollins the other day that they burned a huge portion just recently. What the hell are they thinking? I'd like for everyone to be on the same page. Maybe allow some predator hunting during the summer on wmas?

Atoler, this is NOT to pick on you either but your comment makes my point beautifully! They were thinking that they would practice excellent habitat management. Matt, if the hunting public were made up of Atolers, we would ban burning for turkeys! That is why EDUCATION, not regulation is the best route.

Atoler, this is NOT to pick on you either but your comment makes my point beautifully! They were thinking that they would practice excellent habitat management. Matt, if the hunting public were made up of Atolers, we would ban burning for turkeys! That is why EDUCATION, not regulation is the best route.

Ever watch Troy Ruiz kill a gobbler and you can see the burn still smoldering in the background , thats a Primos hunt .

Good! People that don't have deer bitched and got a restriction so by God lets restrict turkeys too. Hell Yeah, bring it. I ain't got any turkeys anyway so it would tickle the hell outa me.

You think that burning a thousand acres of prime select cut nesting habitat in mid April is a good idea?? Really???? I love burning. I don't like for it to be done in the middle of nesting time

In a word, Yes! Which is why I don't think succumbing to public pressure is a good idea from the educated and experienced Biologists at the State agency that makes hunting regulations. They have dedicated both their education dollars and their career choices and lives to natural resource and wildlife management - something VERY FEW hunters or other public participants have done! Most also read every research paper on their subject of interest every chance they get, also something most public resource users rarely do.

We burned around 700 acres of this place last Thu and Fri. Private hunting land that is on a 3-4 year burn rotation and has had MOST burns in the last 10 years being April and May burns. Their turkey population has skyrocketed based on these recommendations. I would rather turkey hunt this place than pretty much every other place in Alabama that I know of.

How many turkey nests did we burn up? I don't know but quite a few I am sure!

[img]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p261/gobbler06/th_IMG_0755_zpsxcvcdqxu.mp4[/img]

Go read Chamberlains Effects of Variable Spring Harvest Regimes on Annual Survival and Recovery Rates of Male Wild Turkeys in Southeast Louisiana, 2012.

I would assume because most hens would be bred again and nest again.........and surviving poults having a better habitat for nutritional needs their first several months.

I would assume because most hens would be bred again and nest again.........and surviving poults having a better habitat for nutritional needs their first several months.

An educated man

Sacrificing a little in the short-term for the benefit of the long-term.

Matt, thanks for all the info and for taking time to post on aldeer. I do appreciate it, and don't forget that I asked you to be my Commissioner when I get elected governor.

I guess this coulda been directed at somebody else, but I seem to be the most likely suspect:

>>>Another observation of mine is the ones who seem to have the biggest problem with change are the ones happily killing their limit each season, not experiencing a decline, and are determined to do it their way regardless of what the research indicates, and with no regard for the resource. <<<

I will plead guilty to trying to kill my limit, and we haven't had a decline on my properties. But I am certainly not against change when research indicates we need it. I had heard of some of the studies you mentioned, but as gobbler said, it looks like a change in the starting date of the season would address those issues, not a change in the limit. I can remember when the season was March 20-April 25 every year, and they still had a 5 bird limit. As they gradually increased the season, it didn't seem to impact the population.

IF research could somehow prove that a reduction in the limit was truly needed to protect the population, then I would certainly be for it. But if we are going to even have a discussion on reducing the limit for a research based reason, it appears to me that the first thing we all need to know is how many limits are killed. The fact that the state won't release that figure is concerning to me, and I think you can see why. They sure didn't mind publicizing the number of hunters that were killing more than 3 bucks when we had that debate. I don't remember the numbers used, but they were quoted often on this site.

But the part about having "no regard for the resource" bothers me indeed. I have been a strong advocate for the wild turkey all of my adult life. I have vigorously opposed the killing of hens, and was willing to support the protection on jakes before gobbler convinced me it was a bad idea. I've opposed doing away with daily limits because I think it leads to massacres of bachelor flocks in the early season. All of this was just talk, and probably worthless as far as protecting any turkeys.

But I can claim to have done a lot of habitat improvement to actually produce more turkeys. That does benefit me, but it also benefits all my neighbors. I doubt there are many amateur turkey managers who spend as large a % of their time and money to benefit turkeys. And I've always tried to share what I've learned with others so they can do the same. I don't think the "no regard for the resource" is deserved.

I'm not against change when it's needed. I just think it oughta be change that actually accomplishes something. I hope the committee will make sure that any changes they propose are truly needed and proven to work.

A good evening to all! I am in Cheyenne, OK; hoping to go out tomorrow and rape and pillage their resources.

so.... you are saying that hens being bred again would have the same success as they would have before the initial destruction? Because the habitat can be created before most of the nesting takes place.....

Gobbler, I'm not saying you are wrong, obviously you are much more studied on the scientific end of things than I am. But...I am a very logical person, so I'm inviting you to use a logical argument or present facts that disprove me.

I would say this. Would it be better, in most cases, to get your burning done before April? ... yes, in most cases. Growing season burns have different effects on the habitat and woody vegetation as well as insect populations. Sometimes burning in the growing season is what the doctor ordered and sacrificing a few turkey nests does little damage in the grand scheme of things. I would guess that one or 2 raccoons and a coopers hawk on this property destroyed more turkey nests and poults on the place than our 700 acre burn. However 2 raccoons and a coopers hawk didn't make any better habitat, less dense vegetation, more growing, lush vegetation or more insects to help turkey poults or keep the nesting habitat in good order for next year!

One of our problems is we can't burn all our properties in the winter either and we have learned the benefits of growing season burns. Read this:
http://www.talltimbers.org/images/pubs/FireBreedingBirdsBooklet-small.pdf

The ability of hens to re-nest has been proven time after time. I would rather do a habitat improvement regardless of the time of year it gets done. Destroying a few nests will be negated by the amount of birds you'll draw from surrounding areas. Sometimes a warm season fire is needed to knockout the undesired hardwoods in your timber stand. We have a 40 acre stand of thinned pines that used to hold birds but the sweetgums are so thick now that the birds have moved elsewhere. I wish they'd light it up now. The February burn they did 2 years ago only made them come back thicker.