Originally Posted By: Matt Brock

For both PCP and Gobbler, what would you think if AU(not MSState), since you like throwing that in there, provided a scenario through a mathematical formula that included season lengths, different bags, real hunter mortality, real poult recruitment, real incidental hen harvest, real natural mortality, real hunter satisfaction, and predicted the population growth or decline over decades for each scenario, AND the results that were scientifically predicted suggested that a change in bag limits or season structure was needed? I throw in the term real data, meaning it was collected in AL by real hunters and biologists who spend time in the real world. (Bankhead that's for you).

Now what if the data suggested no change was needed? Yay!!

For some reason y'all have the idea that the state wants to reduce the limit. I'm not sure where y'all have concluded that. We are only conducting the research to see IF it makes a difference and is needed. I've already said I'm for killing as many as possible if it's sustainable. I'm only asking questions that need to be asked, and doing the research answers them.


First off, Matt, no offfence intended. I know you and you do as good a job as any Bio out there, so not picking on you in particular. As a fellow biologist, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and commitment.

To answer your first scenario, I am NOT and never have been a fan of modelling to set limits, etc. I think the current crop of biologists, AND professors teaching them, rely entirely too much on computers to make their decisions. That is what is leading to the current Global Warming debates - Modelling. I was taught by the Dan Speakes, Lovett Williams, George Hurst, Keith Causeys of the wildlife research world. Field biologists and researchers who knew the woods and wildlife. The current computer modelling craze would and is nauseating. So, I would NOT be much in favor of a computer model to tell me when the season should start and finish and how many each person should kill. Too many variables and unknowns to ever put in a computer program.

Originally Posted By: Matt Brock
Also, since the state agency has been given the task of managing the resource for the benefit of all users, what if a majority of hunters were in favor of a reduced bag? I've talked to far more in north AL that are in favor than the opposite. That is a fact. I've also talked to more in south AL who are opposed. So there are regional differences.


The majority of hunters do not have the educational background to make decisions on bag limits and season lengths. Individual anecdotal data collection results in stupid regulations. Also too many diversified interests, that is why we have a game and fish division.

Originally Posted By: Matt Brock
Gobbler, I found time for you.

Greater illegal hen mortality has been associated with earlier opening dates (Normal et al. 2001), and substantial illegal hen mortality has occurred in areas when spring turkey season coincided with peak breeding (Kimmel and Kurzejeski 1985).

Other studies have shown considerable hen mortality as it relates to earlier opening dates (Wright and Speake 1975, Williams and Austin 1988, Davis et all 1995).

Mean nest incubation initiation is April 20-30 for south and central Al and as late as May 1-7 for north Al (Whitaker 2013). Meaning laying began approximately two weeks earlier.

On Thomas WMA in 1980, Everett determined average hatch as May 22-28, and ranged from May 1-June 24.

Peak gobbling periods in Clarke Co as determined by Davis in 1977 were April 5 and April 25. If peak gobbling coincides with breakup of winter flocks (first peak) and nest initiation (second), and that occurs in early April and late April in south AL, then it is certainly later in north AL.

Gardner found that the earliest hatch date was May 6 and 80% of poults hatched the last three weeks of may.

Metzler found that in North AL peak hatch occurred the first week of June.

I can go on and on and on.


Those numbers are close to what I threw out, maybe a little later. I don't have a problem with shifting dates if it makes sense. Throwing out hen mortality with gobbler limits and season timing is a totally different scenario that we didn't talk about. Not part of setting gobbler limits if you ask me.

Originally Posted By: Matt Brock
Seems like to me people would be glad to have a state agency that's trying to lead in efforts of sound management, and get on top of a problem to correct it instead of falling behind and hitting the panic button once something catastrophic happens. Facts are that a lot of areas are experiencing a decline and poult recruitment is low and getting lower. Trying to figure out why and what to do about it is what we do.

Another observation of mine is the ones who seem to have the biggest problem with change are the ones happily killing their limit each season, not experiencing a decline, and are determined to do it their way regardless of what the research indicates, and with no regard for the resource. crazy


This discussion is NOT a sky is falling discussion or that the State IS going to reduce the bag limit. It is simply a debate on whether reducing the bag limit of gobblers makes sense. Everyone is throwing out their opinion - kinda like a debate.... hmmmm grin

Last edited by gobbler; 04/27/15 07:22 AM.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine