Paul tells us there is now only one baptism in Eph 4:5. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was a promise and not a command that could be carried out by man. Every example of conversion in the book of Acts included water baptism. The passage in I Pet 3:20-21 clearly indicates that water baptism now saves us. There is nothing special in the water but the obedience to a command that frankly makes no sense in human terms. You can search the scripture from cover to cover and you can only find one way to get INTO Christ and that is through baptism (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27). We are without question saved by faith. To that, there is no argument. Faith does not equal belief alone, but doing what God said. By faith, the walls of Jericho fell down (Heb 11:30). Jericho was a gift (Joshua 6:2). So, this free gift was obtained by faith. All they had to do is obey the simple commands to obtain it. They earned nothing. There is no value in marching around walls. The wall did fall by faith AFTER they were encircled for 7 days (Heb 11:30). Those in Acts 2 were baptized "for the remission of sins" (vs 38). This phrase is also used in Matt 26:28 stating that Jesus blood was shed for many "for the remission of sins". Did Jesus shed his blood because people's sins had already been forgiven or so that people could have the remission of sins? I think that is obvious. At Jesus death, blood and water flowed from his side (Jn 19:34). Blood and water. Jesus blood was shed for the remission of sins. We are baptized in water for the remission of sins. Blood and water. We are baptized into his death (Blood flowed at his death and we are baptized in water, blood and water - Rom 6:4). There is nothing meritorious in baptism but it is done by faith, because God said to do it. We are children of God by faith because we have been baptized INTO Christ - Gal 3:26-27

Some posts have already said as much above, but it could help to look at it this way...

What we're REALLY talking about is a soteriological matter, how does "salvation" work? And I'm not just proof texting a verse(s)about baptism because there's a lot of room for error when we don't use a safer study method(s). (We gotta make sure that a verse with the word "baptism" in it is actually talking about conversion, and if so, what's it teaching in light of the bigger passage and rest of scripture?) Maybe it makes a difference in our view of baptism when we use other things we're clearer about to judge it by. Our salvation is "by grace, through faith", agree? And ultimately every facet of Christian life, especially conversion, is trinitarian- To the Father, Through the Son, By the Holy Spirit. (I believe it's safest when you view every passage through the trinitarian lens) Now, I believe I can make a solid biblical defense that the Holy Spirit is the exclusive active agent in conversion. It's at least plausible that the Spirit enters at the time of conviction, that first moment of wooing me TO THE FATHER. But when does new birth occur?...when am I actually regenerated? Does the process of baptism usher the active agent in? Or was the active agent already in me? So maybe what I'm asking here is are we saved the instant the Holy Spirit enters, or when dunking occurs?

I believe that the only way to be saved is to simply accept the gift of salvation by having faith in Him ... I am not worthy of salvation due to my sinful nature and nothing I can do will earn me the right to reside in heaven.



Now, that said ... My parents brought me up in a Church that baptized babies. I was 'baptized' as an infant and I went through a 'confirmation class and ceremony' as an early teenager.

Was I saved then? I believe so but I personally feel that I had not received the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

Why do I feel this way? Because life was miserable and painful for me until, at the age of 32, I decided that I wanted to simply be obedient and be baptized by immersion. Once I did that EVERYTHING changed for me. Life became a joy and my faith began to grow and grow as I saw Him interact with me and intervene in my life.

Just my own personal experiences ... I don't claim to know the absolute truth and I am open to listening to the experiences of others

Eph 2:1-9 - You were dead (vs 1,5), you were made alive and raised up together WITH Christ (vs 5-6) you are saved by grace through faith (vs 8-9).

When were you dead and made alive and raised up together with Christ? According to Rom 6:1-11, that happens at baptism.

Gal 3:26-27 says that we are children of God by faith because we have been baptized.

Did Jesus get the order wrong when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?

Why was Saul told to "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" (Acts 22:16). He was a believer that had been praying for 3 days, yet he still needed his sins to be washed away.

In Acts 16, the jailer was told to believe and he would be saved (Acts 16:30). He rejoiced having believed (vs 34). What happened in between these 2 verses? He heard the word of the Lord, he showed his repentance in washing the stripes, and he was baptized. Then after his baptism, he rejoiced having believed. He did the same thing that those on Pentecost did in Acts 2:38-41, they repented and were baptized.

The Eunuch in Acts 8 asked about baptism after Phillip "preached Jesus" (vs 35-36)? So, how did he know about water baptism after only having Jesus preached to him? Preaching Jesus includes instructions for water baptism. That is the ONLY way.

To understand the purpose of baptism, read the scriptures that deal with baptism. One verse does not negate another. The bible is in perfect harmony with itself. We can read where faith is required. We can read where repentance is required. We can read where confession is required. We can read where baptism is required. We can read where living faithfully is required. Just because I read a verse that says confession is required doesn't mean that repentance or faith is not required. We need to read and believe ALL that God has said and not hang on to one verse at the exclusion of all others. The summation of all the verses is truth (Ps 119:160, Jn 17:17).

Im in agreement with #2

Im in 100% agreement with this!!!!!

Im tired of the "I Believe" statements. What does the Bible say. It doesnt matter what "you" believe or want to believe. Its Gods way or not at all. Thats why there are so many denominations.

In the thread regarding the SBC issue, you said "Amen" when someone claimed a salvation comes by "accepting Jesus as your Savior and asking Him into your heart." You claim that baptism is somehow an attempt for man to save himself - what's the difference in accepting Christ and saying a prayer? In both cases a person is having to do SOMETHING. You also claim that a person must have "faith" in order to be saved because of Ephesians 2:8... is telling someone that they must have faith in order to be saved really "legalism" (aka following the law)?

Here's the thing with the concept of faith. Ephesians 2:8 states that we're saved by God's grace through faith. "Faith" comes from "pistis", which means "belief with a strong conviction." The word "believe" in our NT's comes from "pisteuo", which means exactly the same thing as "pistis". It's ironic that the same word that's used in Ephesians 2:8 has the same "root word" as James 2:19 - where we read even the demons believe and tremble. IF we're saved by grace through faith and demons have faith, the clear conclusion is that demons are saved. Yet, we know that's not the case. Thus, there's something else missing.

The "thing that's missing" is that the religious word has largely redefined "faith" to mean "simple trust without any outward action whatsoever". When four men brought a paralytic to Jesus, He "saw their faith" (Mark 2:5) - not their hearts but their actions. In John 3:36, we read "Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; whoever does NOT OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Notice the comparison of "believes" with "not obey" in the text. When I fail to believe in Jesus, I've disobeyed... when I have not obeyed Him, I've disbelieved.

The clearest of all NT passages in this discussion is James 2:14-26. IF simple faith (a convicting belief) saves, then demons are saved. No... as verse 22 says, "faith" is completed by works (action). So, "faith" is more than simple belief with convicts... it is belief which compels one to obey. That's why Hebrews 11 says people's faith "moved them to obey God". Was Noah saved from the flood because he just believed God could save him... or because he also obeyed the plan God outlined for him to execute? Was Abraham blessed because he just believed the promises of God... or because he also obeyed (11:8) God's directive to go to the appointed place?

"Faith" means that we believe/trust God enough to obey whatever He asks of us - the book of Hebrews and James 2:14-26 clearly demonstrates this fact. In the NT, there's NEVER an instance of a person being saved by a "sinner's prayer"... there's NEVER an instance where someone "asked Jesus into his/her heart." Yet, we do find concrete proof in the NT that these things save a person...
* Belief in Jesus - John 3:16, John 8:24, Mark 16:15-16
* Repentance of sins - Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30
* Confession of Christ (NOT of sins in one's life) - Romans 10:9-10, Luke 13:3
* Baptism (in water, not the Holy Spirit) - Acts 8:12, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21

Now... R.H. Clark has said that baptism is "a reliance upon man to save himself". Is it? Or is it simply that a man is relying on the method GOD has chosen to save a person? When I believe, is that "a reliance upon myself"? What about when I repent of sin... or confess the name of Christ before witnesses? No... I realize that when I do these things, I'm simply relying on God and His word to guide me. I'm fully trusting in Him and His way to accomplish my salvation. I haven't attempted to earn my salvation (which cannot be done) - I've simply obeyed what He asked of me. That's why 1 Peter 1:22 says we're purified by our "obedience to the truth."

To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins.

Are some of you guys saying that your absolutely not saved by faith alone? What about the man on his death bed? If he asks for forgiveness and repents then what scripture says he won't be going to heaven because he wasn't baptized? If he truly accepts Jesus as his personal savior then there is no reason according to scripture that he won't be in heaven.

Demons have "faith alone". "Asking for forgiveness" and "repenting" are "good works and obedience" also. What's the difference between them and baptism?

Suppose I wanted to give you a million dollars... but I simply asked you to come to my house to pick it up. When someone asked you "how did you receive a million dollars?" would you say "I (emphasis on "I") got it because I picked it up at a man's house"? Or... would you say "I got a million dollars because of the generosity of a man"? God has made salvation available to all through Christ... and He has given us a path in which we can receive that salvation. If we choose not to take the path He has defined, we don't receive salvation.

The idea of "spiritual baptism"... is it "Holy Spirit baptism" that you're referring to?

^^ Well thought out and great insights....wonderful addition to the discussion!

For it is by grace through faith alone, not as a result of good works, so that God alone gets the glory. Ephesians 2:8

If you were to die today and stand before God and he asks why should I let you in the response better not be anything to do with works that you did on earth. God freely gives salvation to all that want it (emphasis on freely because it is not earned) and the way to get it is really simple. Know that you know that you know that Jesus died and was resurrected by God for our sins. If you truly accept Jesus as your personal savior then the "good works" will naturally follow because of the change that is done within you. Yes Jesus wanted us to be baptized and as a christian you should most definitely do so, but to say it's a requirement to get to heaven is foolish in my book.

Of course demons believe in Jesus, they probably watched him be resurrected. They do not however have faith in Jesus. Believing and having faith are different. But their fate is already sealed, there is no second chance for them. They are fallen angels and to my knowledge didn't posses a soul to be saved in the first place.

Faith and belief, Scripturally speaking, are not the same, i can believe that a chair will hold me but i have not put my faith in it until i sit down.


Have you ever wondered what seperates Biblical Christianity apart from all other "faiths"? I believe that it is because salvation is by grace through faith alone, not anything that i have done or accomplished but by what Jesus has done upon the cross and resurrection. All other religions teach a checklist of works that must be accomplished,Biblical Christianity teaches that what Jesus did upon the cross completes our salvation for those who accept it by faith. Trusting in any "works" (Church membership, baptism, speaking in tongues, circumcision, etc) takes away from what Jesus did upon the cross. So if you beleive that any of these are necessary for salvation, then in effect you are saying that what Jesus did upon the cross did not complete what was needed for our salvation, and He said"it is finished".


Baptism is a work of faith, doesnt save a person, but tells a lost world of what God has done on the inside of a person.

As far as my post goes ... "I Believe" = "I believe, based on what I have read in the Bible". I'm betting that the others using that phrase mean the same thing

As far as I'm concerned, what I read in the Bible is the truth and is God's way

Faith without works is dead.

Now... R.H. Clark has said that baptism is "a reliance upon man to save himself". Is it? Or is it simply that a man is relying on the method GOD has chosen to save a person? When I believe, is that "a reliance upon myself"? What about when I repent of sin... or confess the name of Christ before witnesses? No... I realize that when I do these things, I'm simply relying on God and His word to guide me. I'm fully trusting in Him and His way to accomplish my salvation. I haven't attempted to earn my salvation (which cannot be done) - I've simply obeyed what He asked of me. That's why 1 Peter 1:22 says we're purified by our "obedience to the truth."


What I should have said is that baptism can be man relying upon his works to save himself. I'm not against baptism. I think every believer should be baptized. What I'm against is the legalistic view that water baptism saves.

It's the same view that the pharisees had concerning their Abrahamic lineage and their assurance of their position with God through their Lineage and circumcision.

Look at what the scripture says about Abraham and his circumcision. It says that he was justified before God by his faith before he was circumcised. His circumcision was only a result of his faith in God. He wasn't saved(justified) because of the act of circumcision but by his faith in God. Baptism should be the same way,an act of obedience that comes from a desire to obey God,yet we are not saved by that obedience no more than Abraham was saved by his act of circumcision.

The legalistic mind has always tried to rule man. Look at how the Jews first reacted when the Gospel was preached to the gentiles. They couldn't believe that these uncircumcised men could be saved, why? Because they looked to their act of circumcision as part of salvation. Paul cleared up the matter when he stated that circumcision is of the heart and not the flesh,that men were not Jews(God's chosen) outwardly but inwardly. I could say the same concerning baptism,that baptism is not the outward act of washing in water but the inward act of the heart,in fact Peter did say just that.
1 Peter 3:21 New International Version (NIV)

21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also�not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


I've encountered that legalistic view of baptism many times. Once my sister who was a nurse had a terminal ill patient nearly drowned by a COC minister. The lady wanted to be baptized before she died and they performed the baptism in the whirlpool at the hospital's physical therapy room. The problem arose when the minister couldn't get the woman's swollen belly under water at the same time as her head. You see his legalistic doctrine said that she couldn't be saved unless all of her was under water at the same time. He held her head under while trying to force her swollen belly under also and nearly killed her in the process.

This legalistic view goes on in many places and men's doctrine dreams up all kinds of ridiculous ideas about baptism. Some only sprinkle, others must be completely submerged. Some baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit, Others only in the name of the Father. All argue their their way is the only way to salvation. All are works of the flesh and full of pride and all grieve the Holy Spirit.

Scenario that is hypothetical, but is also very real across the country:

Child grew up in Christian home, always at church. Good kid. Child is at VBS and decides to accept Jesus and be saved. Gets baptized. Child had been learning and growing in Christ, knew God is Real, Knew the bible is True, many of their friends had already been saved at some point in the past, knows he/she should be saved too, feels pressure internally and answers an invitation, goes down front in profession of faith, does the typical follow up with pastor or minister, gets baptized. Intentions are true, but this child really doesn't get it on a deep heart level.

Life moves forward and this child becomes a teen goes through jr high and high school, college and becomes a young adult. Grew up in church, knows the stories, knows verses, considers himself/herself and believer, all their friends and family are church members too. But their heart, while knowing the Truth, isn't actually following Christ. They are in church on Sundays and Wednesdays, they talk the talk, even do mission trips in the summer. But when not in church they are the same as the world of non-believers around them....living a life outside of what God calls us to live. This life continued from their teens to now young adulthood. Fruit...not really. They play the part of a Christian with church people, but play the world with non-church people--or their other worldly church friends in the same boat. "Cultural Christian" or "CINO--Christian in Name Only" would be applicable here.

This scenario is a real scenario all around us. That was me.

I in my mind accepted Christ initially, was baptized, then lived like I was always living. When it came down to living a life of faith, I wilted. Reminds me of the parable of the seeds. I grew and had some shallow roots, but not deep enough or strong enough so that the weeds (life, the world, the ungodly influences) choked me out. My heart was never filled with the Holy Spirit.

But, God in his mercy and grace, did not cast me aside or give up on me. He continued to prod me, call me, love me. As a grown man and father of two, I finally answered the call of the Spirit and truly, for the first time, believed in Christ, trusting him, making him my Savior and Lord of my life. With all my shortcomings and faults, I strive to be faithful, fruitful and obedient. My faith is real, active and alive. My hope and faith are in Jesus. I love the Lord and He loves me. As an act of obedience, I made a public profession and was baptized.

When I look back at my childhood through young adulthood, I see a good kid who was still lost. For I did not have true faith, true repentance, true conversion, or true salvation---I had water baptism but not a heart baptism by the Spirit.

My story is common and I know many men and women who have similar stories. This is one reason I started the Baptism Thread. The heart is the issue. Salvation happens at a heart level only. As humans we can deceive ourselves often. But our hearts bear out the truth and God knows it.

In the South our Christian culture and heritage is a great gift, one that is often taken for granted. There is a growing # of men, women, and children who are growing up in the church but who are also standing with one foot in the world---Cultural Christianity (CINO). Satan deceives us into thinking we are fine and are saved, when in reality we have no root, and we can live however we want because we "believe" in God. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a lie. Narrow is the gate.

For any of you on this board who are reading the discussion, step back and look at your heart. Ask yourself some questions.

1. Do I really and truly have Christ in my heart?
2. Am I actually abiding in Christ, not culturally, but in reality?
3. Is my life, my branch, grafted and attached to the vine that is Jesus Christ?
4. Am I bearing fruit? Fruit of the spirit collectivity together, not individually (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control)
5. Do I have a real prayer life, outside of saying Grace at the table?
6. Do I worship God and have God as the #1 priority in my life?
7. Have I elevated other things equal or above God, making them an idol that gets in the way of a deeper relationship with Christ? (career, money, family, intellect, works, hunting, fishing, hobbies, children, etc..)
8. When I stand one day before the Throne of God, eternal life in heaven or eternal torment in hell waiting in the wings, where will I be going? Does God have any reason to say "Well done, my good and faithful servant!"?
9. Am I on the path that leads to the narrow gate, really?
10. Are you leading the life in Christ that will bring your children and grandchildren, family, neighbors, co-workers, people you know or meet to see Christ in you?

These are just 10 I pondered on myself, there are thousands of other pertinent or similar questions one could ask. I'll never say that baptism is not important or an act of obedience. To me the question is much deeper that is of most significance---Do I have a real relationship with Christ or am I fooling myself and will be one of those who Chris said he never knew.