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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Driveby]
#1380004
06/29/15 02:13 PM
06/29/15 02:13 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
R_H_Clark
Leupold Pro Staff
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Leupold Pro Staff
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
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Not really sure what you're asking of me with the first part. I was just pointing out why baptism wouldn't apply to the thief....because he lived under the old testament.
As far as the second part goes, if we are using God not being a respector of persons as an argument, I would ask if there were other instances in the Bible where there is an apparent respect shown for some over others by God. There clearly is. I could argue that God was a respector of those that were miraculously healed because not everyone was. I could argue that God was a respector of persons when he commanded the Israelites to wipe out entire races so they could have their lands.
You ask why God would require something different of us than the thief. Many were clearly commanded to be baptized in the New Testament so why should what they were commanded to do be any different than what we are commanded to do? Concerning respecting person's,God does not. Acts 10:34King James Version (KJV) 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Everything received from God is by faith,not because God wants some to have it and some he doesn't. Jesus said many times to those he healed,"Your faith has made you whole." What I am asking about the old covenant is how do you think people were saved under the old covenant? Since you said you were bowing out,I'll answer my own question. The old testament saints were saved the same way we are today,by grace through faith. God's grace allowed a sacrifice to pay for man's sins. Those who by faith accepted the sacrifice as having paid for their sins were saved.That sacrifice was only the shadow of the true sacrifice of Jesus. What I'm saying is that the different covenant argument doesn't hold up because both were saved the same way.
Last edited by R_H_Clark; 06/29/15 02:20 PM.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380014
06/29/15 02:27 PM
06/29/15 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,476
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
jawbone
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,476
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
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I believe that baptism is a public proclamation on your part to be entered into The Church. It is also symbolic (I don't like that word in this case, but can't think of a better one) of The Lord covering you with all his glory and grace. I've always viewed it as kind of a pact between you and the Lord. He'll do His part if you try to do yours. Not necessary for salvation, but shows you are doing your part.
Of course I try to keep my inward thoughts on my Christianity pretty simple since I am far from a biblical scholar and don't want to miss the forest for the trees by getting in so deep I confuse myself. I think some people get into the truth of salvation, they confuse everyone, even themselves.
Don't make it hard. Truly accept Christ in your heart and the rest will take care of itself.
Lord, please help us get our nation straightened out.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: R_H_Clark]
#1380017
06/29/15 02:33 PM
06/29/15 02:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,556
Northport
Bamarich2
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,556
Northport
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Not really sure what you're asking of me with the first part. I was just pointing out why baptism wouldn't apply to the thief....because he lived under the old testament.
As far as the second part goes, if we are using God not being a respector of persons as an argument, I would ask if there were other instances in the Bible where there is an apparent respect shown for some over others by God. There clearly is. I could argue that God was a respector of those that were miraculously healed because not everyone was. I could argue that God was a respector of persons when he commanded the Israelites to wipe out entire races so they could have their lands.
You ask why God would require something different of us than the thief. Many were clearly commanded to be baptized in the New Testament so why should what they were commanded to do be any different than what we are commanded to do? Concerning respecting person's,God does not. Acts 10:34King James Version (KJV) 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Everything received from God is by faith,not because God wants some to have it and some he doesn't. Jesus said many times to those he healed,"Your faith has made you whole." What I am asking about the old covenant is how do you think people were saved under the old covenant? Since you said you were bowing out,I'll answer my own question. The old testament saints were saved the same way we are today,by grace through faith. God's grace allowed a sacrifice to pay for man's sins. Those who by faith accepted the sacrifice as having paid for their sins were saved.That sacrifice was only the shadow of the true sacrifice of Jesus. What I'm saying is that the different covenant argument doesn't hold up because both were saved the same way. Define "faith".
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Bamarich2]
#1380041
06/29/15 03:04 PM
06/29/15 03:04 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
R_H_Clark
Leupold Pro Staff
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Leupold Pro Staff
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
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Not really sure what you're asking of me with the first part. I was just pointing out why baptism wouldn't apply to the thief....because he lived under the old testament.
As far as the second part goes, if we are using God not being a respector of persons as an argument, I would ask if there were other instances in the Bible where there is an apparent respect shown for some over others by God. There clearly is. I could argue that God was a respector of those that were miraculously healed because not everyone was. I could argue that God was a respector of persons when he commanded the Israelites to wipe out entire races so they could have their lands.
You ask why God would require something different of us than the thief. Many were clearly commanded to be baptized in the New Testament so why should what they were commanded to do be any different than what we are commanded to do? Concerning respecting person's,God does not. Acts 10:34King James Version (KJV) 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Everything received from God is by faith,not because God wants some to have it and some he doesn't. Jesus said many times to those he healed,"Your faith has made you whole." What I am asking about the old covenant is how do you think people were saved under the old covenant? Since you said you were bowing out,I'll answer my own question. The old testament saints were saved the same way we are today,by grace through faith. God's grace allowed a sacrifice to pay for man's sins. Those who by faith accepted the sacrifice as having paid for their sins were saved.That sacrifice was only the shadow of the true sacrifice of Jesus. What I'm saying is that the different covenant argument doesn't hold up because both were saved the same way. Define "faith". Heb.11:1 The substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen. Faith is relying on and trusting in God despite what the circumstance says. Faith is different than hope. Hope by it'self has no substance. Faith is tangible to the extent that it causes men to act. Abraham was justified by faith,not in circumcision but in uncircumcision. The circumcision was a result of the faith by which he was justified.(Rom.4:11) This is much like baptism which Stray Cat mentioned in the OP.Water baptism is a sign of the new birth which is received by faith.
Last edited by R_H_Clark; 06/29/15 03:10 PM.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380053
06/29/15 03:13 PM
06/29/15 03:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 39,515
Marshall County
FurFlyin
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 39,515
Marshall County
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#2. I'm too tired for discussion.
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Bigbamaboy]
#1380068
06/29/15 03:21 PM
06/29/15 03:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
sbo1971
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
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How could the theif on the cross next to Jesus have been going to heaven that day if baptism is required? You beat me to it. To me this trumps all other arguments. Jesus himself proclaimed it. Because they were still under the law of Moses, Jesus was not dead, had not been buried, resurrected, and the Holy Ghost had not yet been poured out. If baptism is not a salvation issue then why is it commanded? Mark 16:16 6 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. KJV Also is if does nothing then why are we told: Rom 6:4 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. KJV 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: KJV Also; just to show how important baptism was/is, the Apostle Paul after meeting disciples of John the Baptist Acts 19:3-5 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.KJV
Elite Omnia, Easton FMJ, Axcel Landslyde 5 pin slider.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: R_H_Clark]
#1380089
06/29/15 03:34 PM
06/29/15 03:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,556
Northport
Bamarich2
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,556
Northport
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Everything received from God is by faith,not because God wants some to have it and some he doesn't. Jesus said many times to those he healed,"Your faith has made you whole."
Since you said you were bowing out,I'll answer my own question. The old testament saints were saved the same way we are today,by grace through faith. God's grace allowed a sacrifice to pay for man's sins. Those who by faith accepted the sacrifice as having paid for their sins were saved.That sacrifice was only the shadow of the true sacrifice of Jesus.
Faith is relying on and trusting in God despite what the circumstance says. Faith is different than hope. Hope by it'self has no substance. Faith is tangible to the extent that it causes men to act.
Abraham was justified by faith,not in circumcision but in uncircumcision. The circumcision was a result of the faith by which he was justified.(Rom.4:11) This is much like baptism which Stray Cat mentioned in the OP.Water baptism is a sign of the new birth which is received by faith. If faith (relying on and trusting) indeed saves, it's interesting to me to observe that the demons mentioned in James 2:19 were saved.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Bamarich2]
#1380093
06/29/15 03:37 PM
06/29/15 03:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
sbo1971
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
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Everything received from God is by faith,not because God wants some to have it and some he doesn't. Jesus said many times to those he healed,"Your faith has made you whole."
Since you said you were bowing out,I'll answer my own question. The old testament saints were saved the same way we are today,by grace through faith. God's grace allowed a sacrifice to pay for man's sins. Those who by faith accepted the sacrifice as having paid for their sins were saved.That sacrifice was only the shadow of the true sacrifice of Jesus.
Faith is relying on and trusting in God despite what the circumstance says. Faith is different than hope. Hope by it'self has no substance. Faith is tangible to the extent that it causes men to act.
Abraham was justified by faith,not in circumcision but in uncircumcision. The circumcision was a result of the faith by which he was justified.(Rom.4:11) This is much like baptism which Stray Cat mentioned in the OP.Water baptism is a sign of the new birth which is received by faith. If faith (relying on and trusting) indeed saves, it's interesting to me to observe that the demons mentioned in James 2:19 were saved. 
Elite Omnia, Easton FMJ, Axcel Landslyde 5 pin slider.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Blong]
#1380097
06/29/15 03:42 PM
06/29/15 03:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
sbo1971
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
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So if a man finds Jesus one day while reading the bible and repents while asking the Lord to accept him and save his soul, he is not welcomed into heaven until he is baptized? Mark 16:16 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. KJV Acts 10:48 8 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. KJV Considering that it is a commandment what do you think?
Elite Omnia, Easton FMJ, Axcel Landslyde 5 pin slider.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380110
06/29/15 03:50 PM
06/29/15 03:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
sbo1971
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,572
Centreville AL.
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Here's something to ponder, we are told to obey the Gospel;
Paul stated: 2 Thess 1:8 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:KJV
Then Peter stated: 1 Peter 4:17 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
KJV
So what is the Gospel?
Paul tells us as he reminds the church in Corinth,
1 Cor 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
KJV
So the Gospel is the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Now how do we obey the Gospel?
Elite Omnia, Easton FMJ, Axcel Landslyde 5 pin slider.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Irishguy]
#1380119
06/29/15 03:59 PM
06/29/15 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,998
North Jackson
ridgestalker
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,998
North Jackson
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It is a way to let the outside know of the commitment in your heart. For this reason we didn't have our son baptized when he was a baby. We had him dedicated instead. When he is ready he will chose to be baptized. Book? Chapter? Verse?
"The Heavens declare the glory of God;and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Pslam 19:1
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: sbo1971]
#1380123
06/29/15 04:01 PM
06/29/15 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 616
South ms
Blong
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 616
South ms
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So if a man finds Jesus one day while reading the bible and repents while asking the Lord to accept him and save his soul, he is not welcomed into heaven until he is baptized? Mark 16:16 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. KJV Acts 10:48 8 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. KJV Considering that it is a commandment what do you think? 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380149
06/29/15 04:19 PM
06/29/15 04:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,998
North Jackson
ridgestalker
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,998
North Jackson
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Matthew 10:32 says we must also confess.
"The Heavens declare the glory of God;and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Pslam 19:1
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380167
06/29/15 04:33 PM
06/29/15 04:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,060
God's Country
bowhunter86
6 point
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6 point
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,060
God's Country
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Baptism is an act of obedience and an outward display of an inward change. It is not required for salvation, but is one of the first steps towards submitting to the Lord.
You have to realize that in the times that the gospel was written the culture was much different than it was today. During and before Jesus's time on the earth they were under the old law. The custom then was for all Jews to be circumcised and any gentile that wanted to become a Jew to be baptized (it was called something different) until the point of nearly drowning. After he was declared a Jew he was then circumcised. This is why Jesus instituted baptism in his name, not to ensure salvation but as a way to say that you are following Christ. Imagine the turmoil between the Jewish and gentile converts with the Jews and Pharisees when they were being converted and using a similar process of becoming a new person so similar to their custom.
Paul clearly states in Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you WILL be saved. He also says in 1 Corinthians 1:14 I'm thankful I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius. And again in verse 17 " For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."
I like this discussion though, and there's a lot of things about baptism that churches do that I don't necessarily agree with but do not effect salvation for that person in any way. Which in the end is all that matters.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380174
06/29/15 04:41 PM
06/29/15 04:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,288
Saraland, Al
BamaFan64
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,288
Saraland, Al
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Many denominations baptize babies, so to me that part is ceremonial and there's no inward process there. I would agree. My PCA church sprinkles children as "covenant children"...children belonging to saved, Christian parents who are promising to raise their kids up in Christ. To me that is ceremonial, such as a baby dedication in other churches. Once that child is of age and accepts Christ, I'll be honest in that I'm not sure if they baptize again or not. I know they do with adults who are first time professing Christians...but unsure on how they do with covenant children. In the Roman Catholic church, we don't baptize them again. If I remember some of my church history, infant baptism goes back to ancient Israel and the church carried the tradition on. We also consider it to be ceremonial, too, to an extent, because it's a big deal to our families and the rest of the parish. When they reach what we call the age of reason, which can be as young as seven or as old as early teens. At that point, they're confirming, hence the term Confirmation, that they agree with their baptism and they accept their responsibility for their faith and destiny as a Christian. Adults who join the church who were never baptized are baptized. The church does recognize baptism from converts who enter from most churches that baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so converts from the Baptist, Methodist, Pentacostals, etc. are not baptized again. The church does not recognize Mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Salvation Army, Unitarians, etc. I had a friend, who has really studied ancient Jewish customs, tell me that baptism was practiced back in the Old Testament as a cleansing ceremony/ritual. He said that very few churches baptize that way because they required clean and clear running water. He may well be right, but in my opinion, the desire of the person being baptized is more important to God than the method it's done.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Bigbamaboy]
#1380196
06/29/15 04:55 PM
06/29/15 04:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
truedouble
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
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How could the theif on the cross next to Jesus have been going to heaven that day if baptism is required? You beat me to it. To me this trumps all other arguments. Jesus himself proclaimed it. I am of the opinion that this was an exception granted by Christ. I wouldn't base my belief on what one is to do to be saved on this one example. Pretty clear that baptism was a very important event in New Testament times and "Repent and be Baptized, every one of you for the remission of your sins is pretty clear. Out of all the Biblical debates, this is the one I can't understand what the debate is about. What is said in the Bible, in the New Testament is stated clearly… all of the "outward expression, symbolic action, etc. etc. are all interpretations of why some "think" God told us to be Baptized. Why immersion in water is commanded is not necessarily for us to understand. Do you think those baptized by John the Baptist debated why they needed to be dunked to be saved? Point is, it is commanded and there are many examples in the New Testament, so why in the world do people try to debate this and pick and choose different verses as reasons not to be baptized and/ or minimize it's importance? I don't think God intends for us to understand everything… you have "Christians" now debating same sex marriage and homosexuality. How? B/C they pick and choose verses that support the theory that God loves everyone and therefor everyone will go go Heaven as long as they love God. This completely leaves out other scripture that condemns homosexuality as well as other versus that tell us to worship God, to spread his word, to help the sick, homeless and widows, etc. etc. It's not for us to determine why New Testament Christians are baptized. Ok to discuss, but not to redefine... We are simply told to do so. The minute someone starts arguing either against it (saying it's not really important) or minimizes it to something that "makes more sense to us" is the time we take God's word and make it our own.
Last edited by truedouble; 06/29/15 05:22 PM.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: truedouble]
#1380263
06/29/15 05:45 PM
06/29/15 05:45 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
R_H_Clark
Leupold Pro Staff
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Leupold Pro Staff
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
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How could the theif on the cross next to Jesus have been going to heaven that day if baptism is required? You beat me to it. To me this trumps all other arguments. Jesus himself proclaimed it. I am of the opinion that this was an exception granted by Christ. I wouldn't base my belief on what one is to do to be saved on this one example. Pretty clear that baptism was a very important event in New Testament times and "Repent and be Baptized, every one of you for the remission of your sins is pretty clear. Out of all the Biblical debates, this is the one I can't understand what the debate is about. What is said in the Bible, in the New Testament is stated clearly… all of the "outward expression, symbolic action, etc. etc. are all interpretations of why some "think" God told us to be Baptized. Why immersion in water is commanded is not necessarily for us to understand. Do you think those baptized by John the Baptist debated why they needed to be dunked to be saved? Point is, it is commanded and there are many examples in the New Testament, so why in the world do people try to debate this and pick and choose different verses as reasons not to be baptized and/ or minimize it's importance? I don't think God intends for us to understand everything… you have "Christians" now debating same sex marriage and homosexuality. How? B/C they pick and choose verses that support the theory that God loves everyone and therefor everyone will go go Heaven as long as they love God. This completely leaves out other scripture that condemns homosexuality as well as other versus that tell us to worship God, to spread his word, to help the sick, homeless and widows, etc. etc. It's not for us to determine why New Testament Christians are baptized. Ok to discuss, but not to redefine... We are simply told to do so. The minute someone starts arguing either against it (saying it's not really important) or minimizes it to something that "makes more sense to us" is the time we take God's word and make it our own. The issue is important because it is still an attempt for man to save himself. It's still man relying on himself just as he tried to obey the law,he tries today to obey baptism to be saved. It becomes a pride issue,one of I'm saved because of what I did,you are not because you didn't follow the law. I know what I know and I'm at peace because of it. I've seen these ridiculous law followers nearly kill sick people dunking them in water because they had to be completely submerged in water according to their doctrine to be saved before they died. I've counseled man that tried to commit suicide because he was in jail and couldn't be properly baptized in water. He decided to kill himself because a preacher had told him he was still headed for Hell, even after he had cried out to God to save him since he wasn't properly dunked in water. I've said all I'm going to say about the issue. God bless those who have mercy and compassion above law.
Last edited by Driveby; 06/30/15 12:57 AM.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380295
06/29/15 07:16 PM
06/29/15 07:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,316
Cherokee Co. Al.
bgarrett
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,316
Cherokee Co. Al.
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We must remember Baptism has two meanings in the Word. I think that is where a lot of people get confused. When you read the word Baptism think which way is the writer meaning. There is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (the one that saves us) and there is the Baptism of water. God's word does not contradict itself and that all God says is always consistent with everything else He has said. Scriptures such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, and many other passages clearly teach that salvation is not acquired through ritual or any religious work. Baptism is a religious rite (work) and therefore has no saving properties and is not necessary for salvation.
Further the example in the New Testament is that water baptism always follows the exercise of saving faith and is a public act of submission that pictures and identifies the person being baptized with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and with the local congregation of believers. Finally, water baptism symbolizes Christ's work of redemption on the cross. Our baptism is only a picture of what He did.The baptism of the Holy Spirit was promised by John the Baptist, who said that Jesus “will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire" (Luke 3:16). No one understood what John meant until after Jesus had ascended back into heaven (Acts 1:9)
The act of redemption could only be done by Jesus Christ, the perfect Lamb of God. The whole point of baptism is to point to and picture Christ's sacrifice and atonement for sin and it is simply illogical to try to present it as being necessary for salvation. Jesus's death, burial and resurrection paid the price something we could not pay. To use any passage to support water baptism regeneration is a violation of the New Testament teaching of salvation. Thus, those who hold to the position that this is sacramental water baptism have no biblical grounds to do so. (A little harsh, I know)
It is spiritual baptism which is the sole work of God that actually places the believer into Christ and into His death. Water baptism is a proper symbol instituted by God to illustrate God's action in salvation that could not be seen. Spiritual baptism and its outward symbol proclaims the same truth and cannot be separated.
Last edited by bgarrett; 06/29/15 07:28 PM.
It's not a Passion, it's an Obsession. That's what I tell my wife, but she promptly informs it's a disease to which is incurable.
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