yes bamarich2 I think it is the only way to salvation. I have been dipped twice but was only saved once.

Yes it does!
Luke 18:13-14 King James Version (KJV)

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

For it is by grace through faith alone, not as a result of good works, so that God alone gets the glory. Ephesians 2:8

If you were to die today and stand before God and he asks why should I let you in the response better not be anything to do with works that you did on earth. God freely gives salvation to all that want it (emphasis on freely because it is not earned) and the way to get it is really simple. Know that you know that you know that Jesus died and was resurrected by God for our sins. If you truly accept Jesus as your personal savior then the "good works" will naturally follow because of the change that is done within you. Yes Jesus wanted us to be baptized and as a christian you should most definitely do so, but to say it's a requirement to get to heaven is foolish in my book.

Of course demons believe in Jesus, they probably watched him be resurrected. They do not however have faith in Jesus. Believing and having faith are different. But their fate is already sealed, there is no second chance for them. They are fallen angels and to my knowledge didn't posses a soul to be saved in the first place.

The publican wasn't a New Testament Christian at that time....still an Old Testament Jew.
I would like to say something in regard to the posts asking "what if" a certain thing happens such as the man in jail mentioned earlier or the scenario of someone getting killed on their way to be baptized. I will not perform God's job and pass final judgement on someone in a situation like this. However.... for someone to know the truth and willfully refuse to obey is a totally different thing. I content that baptism is an act of obedience. Can we not agree that someone who disobeys a command of God is in sin?
Why would anyone knowingly disregard something that is mentioned in the New Testament so many times? To me it would be like disregarding that spot that popped up suddenly. The Mrs. Might tell you to go to the doctor and you may argue with her it's nothing. Yeah it might not be skin cancer and everything might be just fine.....but why take that chance?

So you got the glory because you came to my house and picked up the million dollars... really? You'd go around and brag that somehow you'd earned that million because you complied with my request for you to receive the gift?

You utilize an interesting word in your first paragraph - "faith alone". Martin Luther, in his theology, because of his staunch insistence regarding the absence of human action in the salvation process, inserted the word "only" in Romans 3:28. He also rejected the book of James as truly being part of the NT canon. Why? Because he knew that James deals a deathblow to the entire idea of "faith alone salvation"... aka "there's no obedience necessary salvation".

Clark and others in this thread have repeatedly mentioned Romans 4:3... citing the OT example of Abraham. What they have NOT cited is James 2:20-21. In verse 21 it says "was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?" One passage says one thing and another seems to directly contract it... what to do?

Things to remember when viewing passages which seem to contradict themselves:
(1) Is the same thing/person under consideration?
(2) Is the same time period in view?
(3) Are the terms being used in the exact same sense?

Applying these rules to the two passages, this is what we come up with...
(1) Abraham and his salvation is under consideration.
(2) Romans 4 deals with a promise God made to Abraham regarding His offspring; James 2 deals with God's command to kill Isaac (note... two different situations are under consideration)
(3) The term "works"... what does the term in Romans 4:2 mean? The immediate context (3:28) gives us the answer - "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law" ("the law" is the Law of Moses). The "works" cited in James 2 completes one's faith (22), justify a person (24), and make faith "alive" (26). Or, in other words, "faith only" without THESE works means a person has a "dead and incomplete faith" which fails to justify the individual. Since Romans states the works of the law cannot justify a person and has no connection to one's salvation, it seem clear the "works" mentioned in Romans 3/4 are NOT the "works" referred to in James 2.

Yes... there are "works" that we must do in order to receive the gift of salvation that God offers. Saying a prayer - that's a work. Believing in one's heart - that's a work. Confessing one's sin to God - that's a work. Those of you who claim that we must do SOMETHING in response to God's offer of grace - that's a "work". Somehow or another, some of you have bought the idea that baptism is a "work", but "belief in Christ" isn't... or that the Sinner's Prayer isn't a "work", but baptism is. A "work" is ANYTHING a person must do in response to God's grace.

You are completely wrong.
Context is Everything

It is erroneous to take a verse, read it without its context, and then attempt to develop a doctrine from that verse alone. Therefore, let's take a look at the context of James 2:24 which says that a man is justified by works. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James two

Notice that James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith--verse 14. He then immediately gives an example of what true and false faiths are. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17). Then he gives an example of the type of faith that isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith by showing Abraham and Rahab as the type of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:20).

This is why in the middle of his section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James says this because the demons believe in God; that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God's existence.

Ascentia and Fiducia

Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental assent--the mental acknowledgment of something's existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something--a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ. A Christian, therefore, has fiducia; that is, he has real faith and trust in Christ and not simply an acknowledgment that He lived on earth at one time. Another way to put this is that there are many people in the world who believed that Jesus lived: ascentia. But they do not believe that He is their savior, the one to whom they should look and trust for the forgiveness of their sins.

Ascentia does not lead to works. Fiducia does. Ascentia is not of the heart. Fiducia is.

What is James Saying?

James is simply saying that if you �say' you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested, or your faith is false. This sentiment is echoed in 1 John 2:4 which says, "If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar."

Apparently, there were people who were saying they were Christians but were not manifesting any of the fruit of Christianity. Can this faith justify? Can the dead �faith' that someone has which produces no change in a person and no good works before men and God be a faith that justifies? Absolutely not. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: "We believe Jesus lived."

Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, �and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.

Therefore, we are justified by faith. That is, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by faith as is amply demonstrated by Romans. However, that faith, if it is true, will result in deeds appropriate to salvation. After all, didn't God say in Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

You are completely wrong.
Context is Everything
I disagree completely with the first sentence, but wholly with the second.

It is erroneous to take a verse, read it without its context, and then attempt to develop a doctrine from that verse alone. I completely agree, but yet that is exactly what you do with Romans 4. The "works" referred to in 4:2 are the "works of the law". When Christ died and nailed the law of Moses to the cross, one could no longer obtain salvation via that law any longer..

James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. Would agree with you here, but for word used in verse 24 - "justified". You used this word in speaking of the publican in Luke 18:14. If you see the way the word is used in Romans 4/5 it's clear that one's salvation is under discussion. When the word "justified" was used, it's clear that James was expanding the subject from just "good works".

This is why in the middle of his section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James says this because the demons believe in God; that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God's existence. In other words, it's not a "saving faith". A "saving faith" includes obeying what God has asked one to do. Would God have saved Noah had he failed to obey in building the ark just because Noah was convicted that God could/would save him?

Ascentia and Fiducia If "ascentia" and "fiducia" were differentiated in the New Testament, I'd buy your argument. By the language employed in the Greek, the NT doesn't make a textual distinction from the "faith" of the demons in James 2 and that of the woman in Luke 8:43ff. Trying to redefine biblical terms to make a passage say what we want it to say isn't honest study.

Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, �and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" You said nothing in your response about the type of "works" mentioned in Romans 4. "Works" there don't mean "any type of work", but rather "works prescribed by the law of Moses".

Therefore, we are justified by faith. Though you and I defined "faith" differently, I agree with the statement. James 2 is pretty clear that true faith involves both belief and actions.

After all, didn't God say in Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Interesting that the word "works" comes up again in Ephesians 2. The context of the passage is what occurred with the Gentiles regarding God's grace - how they were able to be part of God's family. Their membership into God's family didn't occur through the law of Moses - "the law of commandments" mentioned in 15. It came through Christ... something that the "works of the law" could never accomplish.

Regardless of who believes what and who has what Scripture to back it up, I'm just very humbled at the presence of Godly men who know their Bibles and know their Lord Jesus. Even if we disagree on some theological points, it is a very fulfilling time to be on Aldeer, for me at least.

I'd love for all of us to get together for one weekend to camp, fish, do a bible study, shoot skwerls, etc...

May God bless each and everyone of you and your families.

R_H.... What it boils down to is that I can say any prayer or be baptized in water a hundred times but if there is no heart change,there is no salvation.
On this, I'm in total agreement with you. If a change of heart wasn't required (along with other things) then I would round up the biggest baddest guys I could find and we would dunk everyone we came across. But since that's not the case then all we would accomplish is getting a bunch of people wet and mad.
Please don't think I'm trying to take away from the importance of faith or a change of heart because I'm not. I don't believe you can be saved without both.

The reason I keep referring to those under the old law is because they indeed did have to meetn different requirements than me. For example, I don't have to offer animal sacrifices and I don't have to travel to Jerusalem to worship at least once a year. I believe they are saved by the same thing you and I are saved by but they were also required to be obedient. It's just the things God laid out for them to obey are different than the things I am told to do. I'm no "wordsmith" so I hope that makes sense.

Regardless of who believes what and who has what Scripture to back it up, I'm just very humbled at the presence of Godly men who know their Bibles and know their Lord Jesus. Even if we disagree on some theological points, it is a very fulfilling time to be on Aldeer, for me at least.

I'd love for all of us to get together for one weekend to camp, fish, do a bible study, shoot skwerls, etc...

May God bless each and everyone of you and your families.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Everybody study the word. It is not written to be dissected and analyzed under a microscope by scientists to determime meaning. It was written in a way anybody can understand if they put forth the effort. If the preacher says something contrary to what the word says you better be hitting the door. God bless

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Everybody study the word. It is not written to be dissected and analyzed under a microscope by scientists to determime meaning. It was written in a way anybody can understand if they put forth the effort. If the preacher says something contrary to what the word says you better be hitting the door. God bless

Darn that Peter,on the very next page in Acts 3:17 he completely forgot to tell everyone that they needed water to be saved.

Acts 3:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.