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Velvet
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380530
06/30/15 06:14 AM
06/30/15 06:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,821 Huntsville
JUGHEAD
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,821
Huntsville
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Is baptism required FOR salvation....no. Is baptism required BECAUSE of salvation (which is ALWAYS accompanied by obedience and good works)...yes.
Last edited by JUGHEAD; 06/30/15 06:32 AM.
"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380531
06/30/15 06:16 AM
06/30/15 06:16 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944 The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
300gr
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944
The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
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Baptism is not a work. You dont baptize yourself. He that beliveth AND is baptized shall be saved. It is part of what Gods word says is required not an option.
Two roads diverged in the woods and I took the one with deep ruts,hills and mud.It may be bumpy but WHAT A RIDE!
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380534
06/30/15 06:29 AM
06/30/15 06:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944 The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
300gr
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944
The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
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When peter was asked what MUST we do to be saved his reply was "repent AND be baptized" was his reply. This came from one of the 12 closest people to Christ. He walked with him and studied directly under Jesus. So im going to believe him versus mans opinion. You wanted a straight forward answer .That was it. Of course Belief,repentance,confession are also required which are not mentioned in this verse BUT are mentioned in other verses. ***Somebody show me scripture and verse where one was saved in the new testament 1. when they were alone, 2. by saying the "sinners prayer". It simply doesnt exist
Last edited by 300gr; 06/30/15 07:23 AM.
Two roads diverged in the woods and I took the one with deep ruts,hills and mud.It may be bumpy but WHAT A RIDE!
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Driveby]
#1380537
06/30/15 06:31 AM
06/30/15 06:31 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,190 Chelsea, AL
straycat
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,190
Chelsea, AL
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Faith without works is dead. Very true, and works without faith is pointless.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380538
06/30/15 06:31 AM
06/30/15 06:31 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,821 Huntsville
JUGHEAD
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,821
Huntsville
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Faith without works is dead. Very true, and works without faith is pointless. Amen and amen on both counts! ![thumbup thumbup](/forum/images/graemlins/default/grinning-smiley-003.gif)
"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380540
06/30/15 06:39 AM
06/30/15 06:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,316 Cherokee Co. Al.
bgarrett
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,316
Cherokee Co. Al.
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Please read Let me share a short story. My father was killed when I was one. My mother was a saint and remarried to a lost man. He was a hard man and stepfather. My mother died at 45 and I was the only family my stepfather had. When he was 75 the Holy Spirit drove me to share the hard truth of salvation with him. After a hour of sharing the truth with him he came to Except Jesus as his lord and savior. I saw a broken man that day as he cried in my arms. For that day was the day of salvation. That day he believed and was baptized in the Holy Spirit. That was on a Wednesday. I shared that at church that night how the Holy Spirit moved in my life and his. That Friday in the cool of the day he had a massive stroke and died. If there is one person here that believes he was not saved I pray you change your mind
Last edited by bgarrett; 06/30/15 06:55 AM.
It's not a Passion, it's an Obsession. That's what I tell my wife, but she promptly informs it's a disease to which is incurable.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Driveby]
#1380542
06/30/15 06:41 AM
06/30/15 06:41 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670 NW Alabama
R_H_Clark
Leupold Pro Staff
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Leupold Pro Staff
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
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Faith without works is dead. True,but that doesn't mean that works save an man. The scripture also says that Abraham was justified by faith,not by works.Rom.4 So then we must reconcile both scriptures to be true. James is saying that a man doesn't truly have faith unless they move him to works. Abraham's faith moved him to the work of circumcision yet it was his faith that saved him. Let's take that example to baptism. A man's faith should lead him to baptism,in fact I would think something was wrong with any Christian who refused to ever be baptized. Yet,he is not saved by the work of baptism no more than Abraham was saved by the work of circumcision. The scripture says that he received it as a sign of the faith that he already had. Baptism should be the same way. What I object to is a legalistic view that a man would go to Hell even after asking for salvation if he happened to die before he was dunked in water. His living faith should lead him to baptism but it is only a sign,a seal of the righteousness of faith that he had yet being unbaptized. Romans 4:11King James Version (KJV) 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: Bamarich2]
#1380556
06/30/15 07:02 AM
06/30/15 07:02 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,316 Cherokee Co. Al.
bgarrett
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,316
Cherokee Co. Al.
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Oh It is spiritual baptism which is the sole work of God that actually places the believer into Christ and into His death. Water baptism is a proper symbol instituted by God to illustrate God's action in salvation that could not be seen. Spiritual baptism and its outward symbol proclaims the same truth and cannot be separated. The idea of "spiritual baptism"... is it "Holy Spirit baptism" that you're referring to? yes bamarich2 I think it is the only way to salvation. I have been dipped twice but was only saved once.
It's not a Passion, it's an Obsession. That's what I tell my wife, but she promptly informs it's a disease to which is incurable.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380564
06/30/15 07:14 AM
06/30/15 07:14 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944 The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
300gr
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944
The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
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This is borrowed but a good read.
In spite of the clearest statements of Scripture to the contrary, most Protestant denominations deny that baptism is a condition of God’s forgiveness of our sins. Some reason that acceptance of such would equal salvation by one’s own works. Others reject the necessity of baptism because of their erroneous dictum of salvation by “grace alone” and “faith alone” (not realizing that logically must exclude either “grace” or “faith”). In order to maintain their “denial syndrome” relative to baptism, men have invented numerous ingenious ploys to avoid the force of explicit statements of inspired men, including those made by Jesus (e.g., Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom. 6:3–4; Gal. 3:27; Tit. 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; et al.).
Those who teach and practice the New Testament doctrine concerning baptism in God’s plan of salvation have been accused of teaching “water salvation.” Acts 22:16 may elicit this accusation more often than any other passage: “And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on his name.” When we emphasize the plainness of this declaration that the guilt of sins is removed , but in, the act of baptism, we hear the retort: “You believe that water will wash away sins.” If this passage so states, then we would all be obligated so to teach. However, neither this nor any other statement of Scripture so teaches, and we have never met anyone who believes such obvious heresy.
One must look elsewhere to discover the only agent that can “wash away” the sins that will bring eternal condemnation, if not forgiven. Jesus “poured out” His blood for remission of the sins of mankind (Mat. 26:28). We are redeemed by Jesus’ blood (1 Pet. 1:18–19). He “washed us from our sins in his own blood” (Rev. 1:5; cf. 7:14). The old hymn asks, “What can wash away my sin?” and flawlessly answers: “Nothing but the blood of Jesus.” Unless one applies Jesus’ blood to his sins he will be eternally lost. What, then, does Acts 22:16 teach? Not what washes away sins, but when one’s sins are “washed away.” The “what” (as noted above) is the blood of Jesus; the “when” is in the act of baptism. Romans 6:3 explicitly makes baptism the access to Jesus’ blood by saying one is “baptized into his death.” The Scriptural conclusions are unavoidable:
(1) Forgiveness/salvation apart from the blood of Christ is impossible, (2) baptism is the means of access to the blood of Christ, and therefore, (3) no baptism, no blood, no forgiveness/salvation
Two roads diverged in the woods and I took the one with deep ruts,hills and mud.It may be bumpy but WHAT A RIDE!
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380580
06/30/15 07:29 AM
06/30/15 07:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944 The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
300gr
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,944
The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
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21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Did they believe? Of course they did. So belief alone is not enough. Did they work? Yes . so belief and works is not enough. Did they do the will of god which had been taught ? No they tried their own way
Last edited by 300gr; 06/30/15 07:32 AM.
Two roads diverged in the woods and I took the one with deep ruts,hills and mud.It may be bumpy but WHAT A RIDE!
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380585
06/30/15 07:33 AM
06/30/15 07:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,901 Huntsville AL
Rocket62
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,901
Huntsville AL
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Faith without works is dead. Very true, and works without faith is pointless. Truth! And if you really do have faith you will be doing works as a result
I don't want to pass quietly into the night. I want to slide in sideways kickin and screamin Life really is awesome ... Soak it up while you can ...
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: 300gr]
#1380591
06/30/15 07:43 AM
06/30/15 07:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,998 North Jackson
ridgestalker
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,998
North Jackson
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21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Did they believe? Of course they did. So belief alone is not enough. Did they work? Yes . so belief and works is not enough. Did they do the will of god which had been taught ? No they tried their own way Staying on the sideline today. You fellows are doing a wonderful job of giving the truth backed with Bible.
"The Heavens declare the glory of God;and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Pslam 19:1
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380595
06/30/15 07:46 AM
06/30/15 07:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 24,155 Clarksville, TN /Greenville, ...
bill
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 24,155
Clarksville, TN /Greenville, ...
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John 1:32, 33
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
"Political debate: when charlatans come together to discuss their principles" - Bauvard
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: 300gr]
#1380603
06/30/15 07:55 AM
06/30/15 07:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,190 Chelsea, AL
straycat
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,190
Chelsea, AL
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This is borrowed but a good read.
In spite of the clearest statements of Scripture to the contrary, most Protestant denominations deny that baptism is a condition of God’s forgiveness of our sins. Some reason that acceptance of such would equal salvation by one’s own works. Others reject the necessity of baptism because of their erroneous dictum of salvation by “grace alone” and “faith alone” (not realizing that logically must exclude either “grace” or “faith”). In order to maintain their “denial syndrome” relative to baptism, men have invented numerous ingenious ploys to avoid the force of explicit statements of inspired men, including those made by Jesus (e.g., Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom. 6:3–4; Gal. 3:27; Tit. 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; et al.).
Those who teach and practice the New Testament doctrine concerning baptism in God’s plan of salvation have been accused of teaching “water salvation.” Acts 22:16 may elicit this accusation more often than any other passage: “And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on his name.” When we emphasize the plainness of this declaration that the guilt of sins is removed , but in, the act of baptism, we hear the retort: “You believe that water will wash away sins.” If this passage so states, then we would all be obligated so to teach. However, neither this nor any other statement of Scripture so teaches, and we have never met anyone who believes such obvious heresy.
One must look elsewhere to discover the only agent that can “wash away” the sins that will bring eternal condemnation, if not forgiven. Jesus “poured out” His blood for remission of the sins of mankind (Mat. 26:28). We are redeemed by Jesus’ blood (1 Pet. 1:18–19). He “washed us from our sins in his own blood” (Rev. 1:5; cf. 7:14). The old hymn asks, “What can wash away my sin?” and flawlessly answers: “Nothing but the blood of Jesus.” Unless one applies Jesus’ blood to his sins he will be eternally lost. What, then, does Acts 22:16 teach? Not what washes away sins, but when one’s sins are “washed away.” The “what” (as noted above) is the blood of Jesus; the “when” is in the act of baptism. Romans 6:3 explicitly makes baptism the access to Jesus’ blood by saying one is “baptized into his death.” The Scriptural conclusions are unavoidable:
(1) Forgiveness/salvation apart from the blood of Christ is impossible, (2) baptism is the means of access to the blood of Christ, and therefore, (3) no baptism, no blood, no forgiveness/salvation
It is indeed a good read. The point of contention is...what does it mean to be baptized into his death? The actual washing or immersion of water? Or the meaning behind it--to die to sin in our hearts as Christ died and spilled his blood for our sins in reality on the Cross? Isn't water just a liquid, but the heart is what belongs to Christ? That is the theological difference of opinion in a nutshell. For another borrowed but good read, see MAtthew Henry's commentary on Romans 6:4 Thirdly, We are buried with him by baptism, Rom. 6:4. Our conformity is complete. We are in profession quite cut off from all commerce and communion with sin, as those that are buried are quite cut off from all the world; not only not of the living, but no more among the living, have nothing more to do with them. Thus must we be, as Christ was, separate from sin and sinners. We are buried, namely, in profession and obligation: we profess to be so, and we are bound to be so: it was our covenant and engagement in baptism; we are sealed to be the Lord’s, therefore to be cut off from sin. Why this burying in baptism should so much as allude to any custom of dipping under water in baptism, any more than our baptismal crucifixion and death should have any such references, I confess I cannot see. It is plain that it is not the sign, but the thing signified, in baptism, that the apostle here calls being buried with Christ, and the expression of burying alludes to Christ’s burial. As Christ was buried, that he might rise again to a new and more heavenly life, so we are in baptism buried, that is, cut off from the life of sin, that we may rise again to a new life of faith and love.Let us look at the crucifixion, which is how we are able to access the blood of Christ. Galatians 2:20-21 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. Are we to be physically hung on a cross to be crucified, as Christ was? No. We are crucified with Christ by the heart change of dying to ourselves and dying to sin through Christ living and abiding in our hearts. Christ's blood is what made this possible. So when we are said to be "baptized into his death", isn't this in fact saying that our hearts die to self and sin and are washed clean so that Christ now abides in us, regenerating us anew in life with Him? Is is not the water that does it, but the baptism of the heart which is putting on Christ, the new man, made possible by His death and blood. We are joined with Christ at this point. What happens on the inside of a man stays on the inside until it shows up in obedient faithful observable works (fruit)...the natural flow from a new heart in Christ. Outward water baptism signifies to the world what has happened already on the inside. It isn't the sign that is significant, it is the signification itself. The theology gets deep. But as it was stated by someone else earlier, all believers should be obedient and be water baptized. That captures it all no matter how you look at it.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: 300gr]
#1380607
06/30/15 07:59 AM
06/30/15 07:59 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,190 Chelsea, AL
straycat
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,190
Chelsea, AL
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21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Did they believe? Of course they did. So belief alone is not enough. Did they work? Yes . so belief and works is not enough. Did they do the will of god which had been taught ? No they tried their own way Belief and obedience are inseparable, as this passage shows. We have to remember that it is not our definition of belief that matters, it is God's. It all goes to the heart.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: 300gr]
#1380627
06/30/15 08:21 AM
06/30/15 08:21 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670 NW Alabama
R_H_Clark
Leupold Pro Staff
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Leupold Pro Staff
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
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When peter was asked what MUST we do to be saved his reply was "repent AND be baptized" was his reply. This came from one of the 12 closest people to Christ. He walked with him and studied directly under Jesus. So im going to believe him versus mans opinion. You wanted a straight forward answer .That was it. Of course Belief,repentance,confession are also required which are not mentioned in this verse BUT are mentioned in other verses. ***Somebody show me scripture and verse where one was saved in the new testament 1. when they were alone, 2. by saying the "sinners prayer". It simply doesnt exist Yes it does! Luke 18:13-14 King James Version (KJV) 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Re: Baptism Discussion: Baptism: OUTWARD EXPRESSION of an INWARD REALITY
[Re: straycat]
#1380643
06/30/15 08:36 AM
06/30/15 08:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 395 Elmore County
bamafarmer
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 395
Elmore County
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Another good point is what was Gods commandment in the garden of eden? Not to eat if the forbidden fruit or suffer the consequences right? The serpent says convinces eve to eat of that fruit saying"surely you shall not die". Adam and eve were given ONE command and were also given one consequence if they didnt keep his commandment. This was his creation. Likewise Noah was given specific instructions even down to what type wood to use! He could have used another type wood and it still would have been an Arm and still would have floated, right? But God have specific instructions,and he followed them. The people of Sodom and Gomarah where warned to turn from thier evil way or else..you see a pattern? See,it's not what I,he,she,or him believe to be true that will get us to heaven,but what God commands of us to do and as pointed out in his scriptures hear,believe,repent,confess,be baptised and continue to walk the walk.
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