As for the person above that stated the deer in North mathews are bigger than the deer in south mathews and there being a five mile difference... that is my experience as well and I've been hunting this area of the black belt for twenty years. The research and all the data make good sense.. I'm not knocking any biologist by any means.. but there's something else going on too. We are talking about big open cow pastures in mathews with more houses being built than hunters. There's not much management or food plots or supplemental feeding or anything and within five miles of the same soil there two different herds of deer with one growing larger antlers just about evertime. What's the answer?

Could it be because the genetic origin of the deer herd compounded with the soil is a different subtype 5 miles south (e.g. could be sandier, etc) ? But when you have an area that's so close as a 3-5 mile distance it makes you think it's more of a soil or population density difference.

No.

Fair enough. I have my opinions on where these premium areas are based on my experience but was curious to see others thoughts.

I hunt right smack in the middle of the Black Belt in Montgomery county just south of the city. I grew up on the Lowndes / Montgomery county line just west of the airport near Burkeville. Back in the seventies and eighties when the Hayneville, Lowndesburo, Letohatche, Hope Hull, Pintlala and Snowdoun areas where row cropping soy beans it was unbelievable the size of the bucks being killed. Not uncommon at all to see 150 class heavy antler fat daddy bucks.

Today it's all pasture land but the genetics of these majestic bucks can still be found occasionally in the swamps of the Catoma and Pintlala Creeks and the sparse hardwood areas of this fertile soil in Montgomery and Lowndes county. But it ain't nothing like it was then. I'm going on my 40th year of hunting this area and still waiting for my opportunity to kill one like I remember back then.

Leroy,

Seems I remember 2 different show nuff hosses being killed around snowdoun last year. I can't imagine how it was back when most of the pasture land in that area....and well east and west of there was soybeans.

You hunt catoma? I use to hunt some of the old hall cattle farm land. I Still have a coach that hunts there I believe.

I can't say for the western part of the Black Belt although the zone Selma to Portland's Landing/Sardis to North Wilcox up through Alberta towards Highway 80 has always been known as a good antler trait area.

In the east I would say the main creek drainage basins that Leroy mentioned and also the Fitzpatrick area and also western Russell and northwestern Russell/far southern Lee are good.

One thing I would add, with a little of the ole WmHunter creativity is this: I see the North American whitetail world kind of like a big giant spider web of inter-relatedness/inter-connectiveness.

That big giant spider web has countless areas (kind of like the squares and octagons of a web) where within that area there are certain various genetic traits, including antler traits. These antler traits are different from area to area although there is overlapping to some extent until you are far enough away from one area to where all of the antler traits within one area are completely different from another area.

I used the 5 mile radius above as I can see differences within that distance from another area. At 10 miles antler traits are very different if not completely different. Of course that is a non scientific estimate but there is a distance at which antler traits change, then are the traits overlap with other areas, and then they are mostly different, then they are all different, whatever that distance is.

It would be an interesting study to look at such things.

I went to the game in Atlanta yesterday on a shuttle bus and met an older gentlemen who lives in north Russell and who has 3000 acres leased in northwest Russell and far south Lee. of course I had him show me his deer pics from his smart phone, :), and he has some pics of some dandy big antlered bucks - almost all having unique antler traits/characteristics that I had never seen before including 160 and a 150 class ten points.

He has been deer hunting since he was a teenager, and I asked him if he had ever seen a SOOS buck. He said that he had never seen such a thing in all his decades of hunting. (As another example of **variation** of antler traits from area to area).

Some places simply have better antler genetics than other areas. Which should not be any surprise as it is something that should be self evident. Now of course, the better the management to the better the potential expression of those antler traits over the aging process. But some places simple don't have the superior antler genetics that other places do, and that is true not just in the Black Belt, but everywhere throughout the white tail world.

And only around 10 minutes or so southwest of where his lease is we hunt and see several SOOS a year, adding to your theory.

I would suggest that there are a few on this thread that could use
1) a detailed course in genetics and
2) a detailed course in deer movement patterns
3) enough common sense to understand how those 2 interact
Simply MHO
That is all

Gobbler you know you have no HO.....

Well I want one dammit!



Ok then, those are just as good as a good course in genetics, biology and deer movement. I should have googled them before I posted

Since you had mentioned genetics I thought that posting some general articles on genetics and variation would be helpful to readers in general. That's all.

But I think the point is also that with genetic variation - even with or without deer dispersal/movement etc., there is always genetic variation from place to place - and that includes antler traits/characteristics/attributes. Not all places are the same. Dispersal/movement would add to variation. Everything varies.

Of course better soil, habitat, mgt. etc. can maximize the potential of antler development in any area, and that is everyone's goal, or at least the goal of some people. But the antler genetics are whatever they are in a given area even with dispersal/bleed over/transition/movement etc. so those antler traits are a factor in potential also, not just soil/habitat/mgt., IMO.

I am reminded of those photos posted some years ago by the gentlemen knows as "Bucksville Fatboy" (or something like that)(I think that is who it was) and all his buck photos in his area were narrow 6 points. He said that is what his area produced. They got thick with age, but never had long tines and never got wide. Even at maturity they were narrow racks. IIRC, he said that was the typical buck in his area and that that was a good as it got.

On the other hand there was the young man who posted some photos in that thread some time back where folks were posting a bunch of buck photos, and North Alabama guys posted a lot more big antlered bucks, and that young man posted pics of 3 bucks he killed on his land/lease and they all had what I would call superior antler traits - width, height. long times, lots of points and decent mass.

IIRC, neither of those two places were in agricultural row crop areas or had any particular superior habitat management practices. And that is a good example of variation of antler traits between different places/areas.

Thanks for posting the links. So in your example comparing North Mathews to South Mathews, what factors do you attribute these differences to?

Just ribbin you - no offense intended. My point was some of the discussion regarding "genetic" variation, antler type and character over an area of a couple miles which is impossible since it is smaller than an individual deers', or at least a "families", home range. That would be considered "individual" genetic variation.

I didn't take any offense bro, I think it is a GREAT discussion. And I think this thread brings up some very interesting subjects that are rarely discussed, and I don't even recall ever reading any studies or articles about this before.

I agree - a couple of miles won't be any antler trait variations, just individual variations as you indicate; my thoughts were just that over some distance, like maybe 5 miles, maybe some other greater distance, antler traits and characteristics become different.

My theory is that the overlapping and blending over distance becomes different and eventually with enough distance the various antler traits that exist within one area's deer herd is completely different from another. I do see differences when going from one end of the county to the other. And that to answer the original poster's question, therefore, IMO not every square inch of the Black Belt (or the State or country for that matter) is equal or identical in terms of antler traits and characteristics and potential.

I wish all the deer in my area had more 10 point traits and none of those dang 6 and 7 point traits (not to mention those darn SOOS).

I've noticed that Kentucky seems to have a lot of 10 point antler traits. It may be just appearances (not enough samples) but it seems from all the photos/ TV shows/hunting mags/ etc. that a large percentage of Ky bucks are 10 points even when young. They seem to have very good antler genetics there.

It would really be speculation - and have to clarify that I don't think the bucks are, overall, bigger in north Matthews vs. south Matthews, just that I notice totally different antler traits/characteristics between the two. I also think that there may be fewer screwed up/inferior antler traits in north Matthews. For example, I do not hear people talk about having a lot of SOOS bucks in north Matthews.

I think we are just scratching the surface on this subject and there are more unknowns than knowns.

All I know is that I wish all the bucks where I hunt had 10 and 12 point antler genetics, wide and high!

Although I'm familiar with Mathews, I would have a hard time distinguishing where exactly north Mathews is from south Mathews. If I was to guess what were the factors causing bigger bucks in north Mathews I would say:
1) South Mathews soil subtype changes to a slightly sandier less fertile soil
2) more timber in the south so higher population densities/ more competition for browse
3) more pressure from the heavier timbered properties. A lot of north Mathews is a mix of pastures, woods, and houses.