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Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1559674
12/12/15 04:51 PM
12/12/15 04:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
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FL
mw2015 Offline
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Originally Posted By: CNC
It always seems to help explain any concept if you can include a visual aid. I used Paint to make a crude sketch to reinforce what we were just talking about. This is the most difficult part of a track for any dog, especially the young ones. Even an old experienced dog is likely to have to check many of those false lines before figuring out where the real one exits the search area. It confuses a young dog and the more complicated it is….the more likely they are to give in to mental fatigue. An old dog knows that if they keep looking eventually they’ll work through it and their mature brains can work for an hour or more though this mess if need be. Its hard to predict how long a young dog might go….it varies with the given day and track.

Without this one obstacle, tracking with a dog would be pretty simple and straight forward. The more complicated the search area is muddled up though then the harder it is on any dog and tracker. An old experienced dog may be able to work through it eventually but it may mean spending an hour just trying to pick it out. Maybe they eventually do, maybe they don’t. It takes a really good dog will the experience of dealing with this situation over and over to pull it off. It’s going to be hard for that dog up the road that only goes on a few tracks a year to figure it out. It’s also going to be hard on any young dog until they get enough experience.

Just take this info and put in the back of your head. The rut is just around the corner and they’ll be a lot of marginal shots made on a lot of coveted bucks. We, the dog trackers, can find these deer for you in many instances. Below is one of the biggest obstacles that you put in our path though. If it wasn’t for this obstacle, many tracks would just be a straight run to the deer. If you make a bad shot on a buck and you really want to find the thing….then call us first, not last.

The X is the hit site and LB stands for “last blood”. The dashed lines are the false line made from searchers tracking back and forth across the real scent line.




Really interesting to follow the track. Cool sketch. Like the football analysts use on tv. Appreciate you sharing information with us. Neat stuff thumbup

Re: CNC Tracking [Re: mw2015] #1560014
12/13/15 04:00 AM
12/13/15 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: mw2015

Really interesting to follow the track. Cool sketch. Like the football analysts use on tv. Appreciate you sharing information with us. Neat stuff thumbup


Thanks!.....I think posting up this info will be mutually beneficial for all of us. I think folks will get a better idea of how deer are actually tracked with a dog, what is possible, and what can be done to improve the odds of finding their deer. In turn, it will make my job of finding these deer for you a lot simpler when you already know a little about dog tracking ahead of time. Something that I would really like folks to think about is that if you shoot that coveted buck you spent so much time hunting and really want to find him……be very conservative with how you approach your initial search for the deer. You can ask my buddy bwhunter who saw Otis run right to the gut shot buck at his club. Without the scent trail being muddled up, it becomes nothing more than following the dog. When the scent trail become muddled up really bad then it becomes a puzzle that we have to solve. Weigh your options. If you just shot that buck of a lifetime…..is it worth paying someone $100 bucks or so to bring a dog out to help improve your odds of recovering him? Look, I know that everyone is going to want to do an initial search but just keep it in the back of your mind….If all you did was shoot the deer and walk back to camp, a good dog will likely be able to track right to that deer 90% of the time, be it dead or still alive. It’s the actions of the hunter after the shot the decreases that percentage.


We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1561157
12/14/15 03:10 AM
12/14/15 03:10 AM
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I seem to learn a little something new on every track and this last one was no different. Had I approached trying to loop out ahead of the search area in a little different fashion….I might have saved Otis and I a lot of wasted time searching in the wrong area. I assumed the deer continued on in a straight line down the creek instead of approaching it from the standpoint that the deer could have very well went in any direction….even backwards. That was a mistake on my part. The next time we run into this scenario where the scent line gets muddled down in the search area…..I’m going to back up a little ways off of last blood and begin to make my circle nearly on a backtrack. Had I done this the other day we might have picked back up on the scent line right off the bat.

We’re gonna get this tracking thing figured out eventually. thumbup



Last edited by CNC; 12/14/15 03:13 AM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1561162
12/14/15 03:18 AM
12/14/15 03:18 AM
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Posts: 7,592
Moss Creek
Gotcha1 Offline
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Good luck. Quite a few years ago, I shot a big buck. We found where he crossed the paved road. My buddy and I started following blood. We ended up on two separate blood trails, his going about a quarter of a mile in a semi-circle back in the direction of the road. My trail went practically in a straight line to the Northwest and petered out after about a half mile. Very confusing to this day.


Matt Brock wears knock-off Crocs.
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: Gotcha1] #1561246
12/14/15 04:49 AM
12/14/15 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: Gotcha1
Good luck. Quite a few years ago, I shot a big buck. We found where he crossed the paved road. My buddy and I started following blood. We ended up on two separate blood trails, his going about a quarter of a mile in a semi-circle back in the direction of the road. My trail went practically in a straight line to the Northwest and petered out after about a half mile. Very confusing to this day.

If Otis ever gets scared or nervous while we’re here at home, he’ll run and hide behind my recliner. I guess that’s just where he feels safe and secure. I don’t think deer are much different. They have a core area that they can go to where they feel safe and secure just like Otis does. This is not just going off of my experience but what I’ve been told by other trackers as well….but many of these tracks end up leading in a circular pattern if you track the deer far enough. The deer often times may exit the hit area in one direction only to get out there a few hundred yards and begin to loop back to where they originally came from. They’re heading back to that safe spot to get behind the recliner. It’s pretty common also for there to be an abrupt change of direction….even backtracking along the deer’s original trail. I bet this is where many blood trails are lost. Its seems like as human trackers we are always trying to proceed in a straight line in front of us.

On my next tracks I need to work on making a cleaner more deliberate loop out around the search area to find the clean scent line. I’ve been way to sporadic with how I went about it….looping out to areas where I assumed the deer to go rather than just using the GPS to start at last blood and draw a clean circle on the screen. I’ve been doing a pattern that looked more like a turkey fan out ahead of last blood. I think this simpler pattern will also make it easier to click in Otis’s head and him realize how he can work this puzzle on his own. I think the sporadic search pattern I’ve been doing may just be confusing him a little. This is his biggest hurdle to get over right now. He runs the search area maze a little bit and then becomes uncertain what to do. Let's try this a little differently on the next run and see what happens.


Last edited by CNC; 12/14/15 04:53 AM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1561267
12/14/15 05:15 AM
12/14/15 05:15 AM
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Posts: 36,859
alabama
BhamFred Offline
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have you worked Otis on really FUBARed practice tracks at home...where you can help him work em out to a good ending???


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: BhamFred] #1561288
12/14/15 05:37 AM
12/14/15 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: BhamFred
have you worked Otis on really FUBARed practice tracks at home...where you can help him work em out to a good ending???


I see now that I did it on way too small of a scale and it just didn’t pose enough of a challenge for him. These real search areas are much larger sized circles and Otis just hasn’t figured out yet that he needs to work further out from it to work through it. He runs the maze inside the search area and then comes back to me. I guess I’ve never really paid it much attention since I wasn’t dog tracking before but I see how easy it would be for someone to track scent all over the place. When we blood trail deer on our own…..where do 99% of the people walk?......Right in behind the deer on the same exact path it took, stepping in blood and scent the entire way. They say as a dog gets older that it also learns to distinguish individual deer scents too like ones that come from between the toes. A that point it’s not just relying strictly on blood scent alone and using other scents as well to stay on the deer's trail. Eventually, hopefully this will help Otis be able to follow the deer on the correct path straight through the false lines.


We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1561405
12/14/15 07:35 AM
12/14/15 07:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,859
alabama
BhamFred Offline
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training in real life situations is critical for success in the field.

I ran into this when working my K-9 Mal Taz. Night hunter ran from me one night, then bailed out of a moving vehicle. Quite comical seeing him bounce off the blacktop like he did. Then the alcohol numbed idiot decided to run into the woods. I had stopped right behind his running self, and sent Taz to apprehend(bite and hold) the idiot. She had sight on him and blasted into the windshield of the truck..once..twice..three times before I could grab her and throw her out the door.

I had assumed she KNEW how to get out of the truck..wrongly it turns out. She got the guy and all worked out (for the good guys) but I realized I had failed in my training.

We started the next day sending her on a bite FROM the truck. First time in training she hit the windshield again. LOL She got the hang of it next time and all was good to go.

try to think of EVERY dang situation ya'll might get into and train for it.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: BhamFred] #1561544
12/14/15 10:38 AM
12/14/15 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: BhamFred
training in real life situations is critical for success in the field.

I ran into this when working my K-9 Mal Taz. Night hunter ran from me one night, then bailed out of a moving vehicle. Quite comical seeing him bounce off the blacktop like he did. Then the alcohol numbed idiot decided to run into the woods. I had stopped right behind his running self, and sent Taz to apprehend(bite and hold) the idiot. She had sight on him and blasted into the windshield of the truck..once..twice..three times before I could grab her and throw her out the door.

I had assumed she KNEW how to get out of the truck..wrongly it turns out. She got the guy and all worked out (for the good guys) but I realized I had failed in my training.

We started the next day sending her on a bite FROM the truck. First time in training she hit the windshield again. LOL She got the hang of it next time and all was good to go.

try to think of EVERY dang situation ya'll might get into and train for it.


In hindsight, this scenario should have probably been a major focal point of training after I was done introducing the basics. Running a scent line is actually pretty simple and straight forward but the search area puzzle is a major challenge. I may try to see if I can recreate a better training situation for Otis to work through sometimes this week before we go on our next track.


We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1562228
12/14/15 04:06 PM
12/14/15 04:06 PM
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alabama
BhamFred Offline
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I had to watch my Mal when tracking a person going into the wind, she would raise her head and air scent them...cutting corners isn't good in people tracking. So I'd set her tracks out going downwind so there was no air scent to follow...she HAD to keep that nose down. German Shepherd dogs don't "air scent" as bad as Mals do and usually make better trackers.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1564248
12/16/15 03:18 AM
12/16/15 03:18 AM
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Awbarn, AL
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I turned a track down last night. I’m going to have to learn to be a little more diplomatic about it. I think it might have pissed them off a little. The optimism of the hunter seems to outweigh the reality of the situation sometimes though. This track was a good ways off and was going to take me over 2 hrs to get there or I might have tried it anyways since we’re still training. It just didn’t sound like a very high probability of recovery and had hints of what experienced trackers have described to me as “bad tracks”. The one positive sounding part of the story was that they were finding decent blood. The bad part about it though was when I asked how far they had tracked the deer….the guys answer was “Aw man whew! We’ve gone a good half mile or so at least. He’s made it up and down two big steep ravines and then crossed the road back up a big ditch bank. The spot where we lost blood was going back off into the next big ravine down by the water.”

I’m afraid they blew a leg off or either clipped the brisket low and the terrain didn’t sound like an area where I wanted to unsuccessfully chase a deer for a mile or two. They had tracked it a long ways and never reported having jumped the deer or came across a bed. If the deer hasn’t tried to bed up and you’ve gone over 800 yards, then I’d have to question how bad its really hurt. Leg hits are bad injuries but not immediate killing hits. The deer might eventually die but it won’t likely be due to the immediate injury. They reported finding drops of blood for a little ways then a small puddle…..drops of blood for a little ways and then another small puddle, etc..etc. The little puddles of blood are where the deer stops for a moment. The areas where there are only drops of blood are where the deer is on the move. I pictured the deer moving forward 50 yards then stopping….moving ahead another 50 yards then stopping.

After listening to the story I just had a gut feeling that this one wouldn’t turn out well so I chose not to make the long drive. When I get to the stage where I feel Otis is fully trained and I start charging a fee for “showing up”…..I may not be quite as picky about it. I’ll still be upfront with the person about what I think happened but if they want me to come anyways then I’ll likely give it a try. I can tell folks don’t like to be told…. “I think I’ll pass on this one.”

Last edited by CNC; 12/16/15 03:19 AM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1564289
12/16/15 03:34 AM
12/16/15 03:34 AM
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SE Alabama
ChrisAU Offline
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Originally Posted By: CNC
I turned a track down last night. I’m going to have to learn to be a little more diplomatic about it. I think it might have pissed them off a little. The optimism of the hunter seems to outweigh the reality of the situation sometimes though. This track was a good ways off and was going to take me over 2 hrs to get there or I might have tried it anyways since we’re still training. It just didn’t sound like a very high probability of recovery and had hints of what experienced trackers have described to me as “bad tracks”. The one positive sounding part of the story was that they were finding decent blood. The bad part about it though was when I asked how far they had tracked the deer….the guys answer was “Aw man whew! We’ve gone a good half mile or so at least. He’s made it up and down two big steep ravines and then crossed the road back up a big ditch bank. The spot where we lost blood was going back off into the next big ravine down by the water.”

I’m afraid they blew a leg off or either clipped the brisket low and the terrain didn’t sound like an area where I wanted to unsuccessfully chase a deer for a mile or two. They had tracked it a long ways and never reported having jumped the deer or came across a bed. If the deer hasn’t tried to bed up and you’ve gone over 800 yards, then I’d have to question how bad its really hurt. Leg hits are bad injuries but not immediate killing hits. The deer might eventually die but it won’t likely be due to the immediate injury. They reported finding drops of blood for a little ways then a small puddle…..drops of blood for a little ways and then another small puddle, etc..etc. The little puddles of blood are where the deer stops for a moment. The areas where there are only drops of blood are where the deer is on the move. I pictured the deer moving forward 50 yards then stopping….moving ahead another 50 yards then stopping.

After listening to the story I just had a gut feeling that this one wouldn’t turn out well so I chose not to make the long drive. When I get to the stage where I feel Otis is fully trained and I start charging a fee for “showing up”…..I may not be quite as picky about it. I’ll still be upfront with the person about what I think happened but if they want me to come anyways then I’ll likely give it a try. I can tell folks don’t like to be told…. “I think I’ll pass on this one.”


In my experience deer that are hit badly in the leg or shoulder will not attempt steep climbs. Or they will, but circle back down when they decide that it hurts too bad to be climbing.

Re: CNC Tracking [Re: ChrisAU] #1564342
12/16/15 04:04 AM
12/16/15 04:04 AM
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Awbarn, AL
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Originally Posted By: ChrisAU
[In my experience deer that are hit badly in the leg or shoulder will not attempt steep climbs. Or they will, but circle back down when they decide that it hurts too bad to be climbing.


Yeah, that makes sense. Maybe it was low and just barely caught skin in the armpit area behind the shoulder or possibly brisket in front of the legs. Not really sure. It just threw up a red flag when they reported tracking it for that kind of distance and never coming across a bed or jumping the deer. It didn’t sound like a deer that was about to die anytime soon and I was likely going to get into a bay situation even if we could locate it. This track was in an area of the state known for extreme terrain so after them talking about multiple “ravines” headed toward major water……I made the call to let this one go.

Last edited by CNC; 12/16/15 04:05 AM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1568780
12/18/15 02:26 PM
12/18/15 02:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,745
Awbarn, AL
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Call came into tonight and is scheduled for first thing in the morning. A good buck came out right at last light. The shot was pushing the 200 yards mark. Hunter is reporting finding good blood but also found bone so there’s a real possibility for a leg hit. Blood has been followed out to 150 yards. The hunter wasn’t feeling very optimistic though so the decision was made to back out and bring in the dog in the morning. Here we go again!

To be continued…………. smile

Last edited by CNC; 12/18/15 02:30 PM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1568798
12/18/15 02:39 PM
12/18/15 02:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 149
Tuscaloosa
B
bterry1987 Offline
3 point
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Tuscaloosa
Keep those stories up CNC. They are really fun to read. It makes me miss having deer dogs around like when I grew up. I know yours is trained strictly for tracking purposes, but we had one old walker that seemed to always be able to find a poorly shot deer. So it reminds me of those good old days!
There was also a game warden that posted a bunch of stories about his dog Taz that I really enjoyed reading. Good stuff!

Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1568800
12/18/15 02:40 PM
12/18/15 02:40 PM
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Brierfield
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Old Mossy Horns
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Brierfield
Can't wait to hear the story. Good luck in the mirning


We will burn that bridge when we get there
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1568802
12/18/15 02:40 PM
12/18/15 02:40 PM
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Posts: 10,675
Past Ol’ man Finley’s plac...
Southwood7 Offline
Booner
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Past Ol’ man Finley’s plac...
Good luck cnc, I enjoy reading about how Otis is coming along. Would you come up to Shelby county for a track if the opportunity presented itself? If so I'm going to save your number in my phone.



The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1568847
12/18/15 03:20 PM
12/18/15 03:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,745
Awbarn, AL
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Thanks fellas! ……Finding bone doesn’t sound real promising but they backed out without a big search so we’ll see what happens. We may not end up recovering it but this one isn’t too far away so we’ll give it a try. Maybe they caught some good meat on the entry side and blew out some bone from the off side leg.

Southwood…..I’m going to be real flexible about going to tracks for the rest of this season. If it’s on a day where I can, I’d be glad to track one for you up there.


We dont rent pigs
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: CNC] #1568876
12/18/15 03:48 PM
12/18/15 03:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,067
Brierfield
Beadlescomb Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Brierfield
Makes me want to gut shoot one just so I can meet you and see the dog work


We will burn that bridge when we get there
Re: CNC Tracking [Re: Beadlescomb] #1568877
12/18/15 03:49 PM
12/18/15 03:49 PM
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Lake View, AL
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Originally Posted By: Beadlescomb
Makes me want to gut shoot one just so I can meet you and see the dog work


You're welcome to join me when I do.

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