And we were getting along so well. BTW, when the football team is in huddle, they're talking bout you. Oh , and you plagiarized my old bull / young bull story.

I was pondering over the lake buck you mentioned in the study and why a deer might do that.....and this may very well have nothing to do with his situation.....but I bet a lot of the behavior that you see from deer in general is heavily influenced by their own unique set of negative positive experiences that they have happen over time. I'm gonna guess that a certain amount of that individualism is something their born with but a good bit of is likely a learned behavior as well. They may have a certain unique behavior as a direct result of a negative experience they had earlier in life.

and you would be wrong...again. I have raised several hundred fawns over the last 30 years and they are unique from the day they are born. I've had em want to be held all the time to just give me the bottle and I'll scat away, to I won't take a bottle from anybody but Troy to Just want the bottle I don't care who holds it. These deer don't have any negative experiences with me but are unique individuals from day one....and continue to be that way.

I had a buck fawn that would lay on the sofa and watch TV with my wife. I tagged him and turned him loose inside a 500 enclosure. I saw him pretty regular first year, then he went totally nocturnal with very little movement. Pics at feeders were sporadic and usually at 2 am. No one EVER saw that buck in daylight. I saw him an hour before daylight when he was five, never again. What cause him to go nocturnal I have no idea, but he was unkillable in daytime, rut or not.

Let me explain it in another way…..Now I know dogs aren’t deer so there’s no need in adding that your response…..but I’m gonna use them just to illustrate the concepts….

We know that all dogs are individuals as well…..Some are just born acting this way or that way….But you take just about any dog and introduce an E-collar to them the wrong way and they will quickly form a negative association with it that may last the rest of their lives….Some dogs only take once or twice to effect their behavior long term. Another example.....one of the big rules about tracking your young dog off lead is to not let him get on live deer too early because all it takes is for one buck to charge him to effect how he reacts to them his whole life…..Again, a negative experience effecting behavior….

There’s the unique behavior that they’re born with and then added to that is the unique behavior that was caused through negative or positive experiences as they go through life….especially at an early age…..What about a buck that has his mother shot and killed in front of him?? That would like be a negative experience that would have an impact on his behavior. Look at how deer form negative associations with shooting houses……that’s a learned behavior through experiences…..Again, this isn’t disagreeing that they are born with different personalities….But that’s not all that will determine how they behave later on….So when were looking at that study collared bucks and this one does this and that one does that….It’s not gonna JUST be because they’re individuals….some of the behavior will be a direct result of something they’ve experienced.

Just a complete guess but the first thing that came to my mind about the buck you raised and released in the pen going nocturnal and never being seen is that he was likely scared. It would be like taking a dog that had been a house dog all his life and then putting him out in the wild one day. I think those early stages of any animals life probably mold certain things about them that last for their life. One common thread I see amongst deer is that one of their reactions to negative stimuli is to move less.....Also, I mentioned this in another thread but I think one of the things that dictates a lot of nocturnal movement outside the fact they tend to do naturally.....is the difference in scenting conditions at night. For an animal that sees the world more through their nose than their eyes this would be a big deal.....He's much more capable of being aware of his surroundings at night.

BTW.......What are all the other things I've been wrong about so far?....If you're gonna throw out the harsh criticism then at least step up and point out the details of what isn't right and what actually happens.

A few more thoughts on negative experiences impacting a deer’s behavior and the analogy I was using with tracking dogs having their behavior changed due to negative experiences with E-collars and getting charged by wounded bucks…… Again I know dogs aren’t deer but the underlying principle here is still the same. We see evidence in both species of behavior being impacted and changed due to experiences that occur during their life……

Where there is likely a difference in dogs and deer is in their sensitivity to it…..or in other words……how easily is their behavior impacted by negative experiences…..How severe does it have to be for it to be “traumatic” and have one single event change their behavior for life?? This is a complete guess but if I had to put money on one or the other being more sensitive, I’d go with the deer because they’re a prey species while dogs are predators. Quickly adapting behavior to negative stimuli would be an evolutionary survival mechanism for prey like deer. So I’m guessing they’re probably pretty easily influenced by something they perceive negatively…….and just like in the dog analogy, I’d bet that a severe negative experience(s) while they’re young has the real potential of causing a certain behavior for life as a result of one single event.

So with that being said and keeping in mind that a young dog can be impacted for life by one negative experience with a misused e-collar or charging buck……How much of a bucks behavior later in life do you suppose is a direct result of the things he experienced when he was a young dispersing yearling trying to find a new home?? Just consider the amount of potential negative experiences that a young buck could encounter that’s roaming for miles across the landscape without any idea of where to go and where not to go…..what’s dangerous and what isn’t?? I’d say its highly likely that a lot of the unique behaviors we see in bucks is a result of the unique experiences each one had while dispersing……

Now, if that holds true then there’s another factor to consider about a bucks early days that may have an even more substantial impact. What about bucks who are orphaned when they’re just a few months old and suddenly their sense of security is gone. That buck fawn's experiences early on and how he perceives them are likely to be drastically different than a buck fawn who stayed with his mother for 1 ½ years. The fawn who still has his mother probably never has a care in the world and he moves just as much as the doe group does learning what is a threat and what isn't from his mother ……..I doubt the orphaned fawn leaves a really small area and probably sees the world as a scary place for a while without the security of mother…….all this happening when he is really young and probably most likely to have his behavior influenced long term by such experiences. That may very well be one of the reasons why he’s a nocturnal ghost later on….

Again, I completely agree they are born with differences…..But there’s a lot more influencing their unique behaviors than just what they’re born with….I guess when you look at the combinations of different possibilities that each one may be born with and experience in life early on….it’s very true to say that each one is an individual…..the reason why though is way deeper than "just because"

I’m glad you found something to run with. You ever done anything in life “just because”?

My point in using that terminology was to stress the fact that deer do things for reasons we will not understand. They don’t always behave in ways due to circumstances, although sometimes they do. With some deer, often. I do things every day of my life that no one will ever understand except me and good Lord, no matter how much questioning or data you take from my behavior, I’m going to do things “just because”.

Think cattle, don't try to understand them , just rope em, tie em and brand em. Works on women too.

dogs are predators...see 2dogs. Deer are prey, there is NO comparison.

you need to find something else to rattle on about.

Yeah, that’s exactly what I said as well….see above ^^^^….dogs are predators and deer are prey…..the concept of life experiences influencing behavior is the same though

With the exception of one thing I think…..Every since we’ve been talking about this…..each time I’ve wrote about deer being influenced by negative experiences….I keep thinking….”Shouldn’t I really saying both positive and negative??”…..But all tjat I could see deer being heavily influenced by is negative stimuli…..But then I got to thnking more about a dog and it hit,,,,at least I think….hell I could be way off……

If your training a dog……what is the best way to get pretty much any of them to do what you want them to??....Positive reinforcement……Why???.....Because they’re a predator and changing their behavior is gonna be more easily influenced by positive stimuli….It simply a survival mechanism…..A certain behavior gets them a reward of a rabbit or mouse , etc…..and in doing so it potentially influences a change in behavior.to get another "reward". The fundamental reason it happens is so he'll survive as well as "evolve" over time as other things change around him.

Deer being prey are just the opposite….the concept is the exact same but they are more heavily influenced by negative experiences…….That keeps them from doing the chit again and again and getting kilt….I still imagine both predator and prey can be influenced by both positive and negative stimuli….but nothing like the way their influenced by their maim evolutionary driver…….Just think about how poorly negative reinforcement works when training a dog versus positive…..….The deer just has that flipped around…….

So I guess that might be something worth considering when looking at how you approach your hunting and management practices. What impact are you gonna have on all the other deer in the field when you start blasting??.....AND then immediately get down and have them associate it with humans???.....Most recently we’re learning that coyote can have a big impact on deer behavior and what we’ve been discussing is exactly why. Something for folks to think about….I mean, if you’re into that kind of thing……

I'm gpnna talk about why I no longer like the idea of "blind calling" a lot while on stand pretty soon. I've come to the opinion that unless you've got a rock solid set-up and game plan that you've established ahead of time....most people would be better off to never pull their grunt call out of their back pack unless they see a buck and its their last resort.....I'll start a new thread on what all I've observed and why I feel thi way...….Before we talk about that though, I've got one more out of the box tactic to throw out there for anyone who wants to give it shot. I'm being dead serious when I say that it works but in order for it to be effective....you've got to be able to walk like a buck... ..We'll get into it in more detail tomorrow

If the good Guvner does feel it appropriate and worthy...….could I have "Not a bonified resident expert" put in under my screen name??

If I was a moderator you’d have the title rambling whiny bitch under your name.

By all means point it out if I’m mistaken but I don’t recall hardly ever whining or bitching about anything…..That’s mostly you actually along with a few others…Just take right now for instance…..I’m here talking about deer and you’re here whining and bitching about it…….again……"His threads too long daddy.....delete it for me...pleeeeease…."

I never asked for it to be deleted. Post on moron.

Hmnmm...I think you worry too much about what I’m doing… . I like to write because it’s a release for whatever undiagnosed condition I have that makes it feel like the wheels in my head never slow down or shut off. It’s both a blessing and a curse……but hey, nobody is perfect and we’ve all got our flaws….Just like how you probably can’t help that you’re a dickhead.

I’d rather be a dickhead than a pansy ass bitch anyday

Your wheels are spinning , you abused your brain too much at a younger age. Careful 2 five 7 don't cause a blow out!

That's just culling out the weak brain cells.... survival of the fittest.

I don't have anything to prove to anyone at this point...just for chits and giggles though you should call your buddy Paul up and ask him who hit him the hardest he ever got hit back when he was playing ball. See if he shares your same sentiment.