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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: jwalker77]
#3428932
06/22/21 10:48 AM
06/22/21 10:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,215
abolt300
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,215
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I hauled 24 tons of ag lime out there last August and spread it by hand.
NO ONE should ever question your work ethics, that's 48,000 pounds...by hand. I put out a ton one day with a hand spreader, no way in hell I'd even try that Yall are seriously dedicated to your food plots Dang straight on that. I'll be danged if I'll ever spread lime by hand. Lime truck, buggy, or tractor mounted hopper, yes, but if it's got to go down my hand, fields will just have to lay fallow or suffer.
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Lockjaw]
#3429039
06/22/21 03:21 PM
06/22/21 03:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 8,700 Chelsea
Lockjaw
OP
14 point
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OP
14 point
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 8,700
Chelsea
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This field is majority clay. The edges are pretty tough to get good penetration with a disk, especially the north facing side. The southern half of the field is doing pretty well with clover, but its just plot spike from TS, not the whitetail kind. That's the reason I think subsoiling it would help. And the field is sort of like an upside down bowl. So higher in the middle then the edges.
One thing else I noticed last year with a different plot that was hard clay that I ended up subsoiling. Even though all our soil tests called for heavy lime, none really indicated a need to add anything but nitrogen to them for cereal grains and brassicas. Right? So this field when I planted it came right up, but then everything turned yellowish and stopped growing. We were getting plenty of rain, so I followed the soil test and added more nitrogen, thinking that would correct it. It didn't. So I added more. Still nothing. Then I hit it with triple 17 and it took off. Nice rich green.
So I don't know if maybe even though all these nutrients are there in the soil, but the plants aren't able to extract them. So what I am trying to do is get a really good stand of cereal grains and brassicas in the fall, and then come in when turkey season is over, and broadcast beans and peas and then mow it with a flail mower which turns everything into mulch. That mulch provides the nutrients for the beans and peas, and they provide for the fall crop. THen I am not disking twice a year, but building the topsoil. I realize that doesn't happen over night. But I might be basically trying to accomplish this with 3 inches of dirt and basically concrete under it. Hence asking about getting after it with a subsoiler.
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Lockjaw]
#3429100
06/22/21 04:51 PM
06/22/21 04:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,600 B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,600
B'ham
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You need to stop doing soil tests and throwing chemicals on the field. I have fields I grow row crops in I don't put this much effort into. That's my suggestion. You need to work on building what is called "Tilth". Manure, Sawdust, Ashes from Fireplace were all available and used before chemical fertilizer was invented so think outside the box and it will save you a lot of money.
I am NOT suggesting letting a bunch of weeds grow and bush hogging them, etc. a.k.a. Throw and Mow. There are plenty of other ways to improve the soil and growing a field full of dog fennel isn't one of them IMO. I layer of weed thatch on top of a hard clay base is not what I think you are looking for here. That will possibly result in plants down the road NOT being drought tolerant and ultimately that's going to get in your wallet not to mention further waste your time.
Rip the field. Not with a chisel plow you need a sub soiler a chisel doesn't run that deep and see if you can get someone to spread manure on it then turn that under. It will grow if you do that.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Lockjaw]
#3429853
06/23/21 07:57 PM
06/23/21 07:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,572 Trussville
toothdoc
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,572
Trussville
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Spray it this fall, plant cereal rye/clover/radish either disk or throw and mow. Next spring summer plant sunflower or millet or just let it grow. Next year same thing. I have several areas that looked like the surface of the moon that are finally starting to be very productive food plots.
Last edited by toothdoc; 06/23/21 07:58 PM.
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Goatkiller]
#3430006
06/23/21 10:40 PM
06/23/21 10:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422
Awbarn, AL
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You need to work on building what is called "Tilth".
Rip the field. Not with a chisel plow you need a sub soiler a chisel doesn't run that deep and see if you can get someone to spread manure on it then turn that under. It will grow if you do that. For conversation sake........How would you go about maintaining that soil tilth moving forward after this treatment??
Last edited by CNC; 06/23/21 10:40 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Lockjaw]
#3430095
06/24/21 08:49 AM
06/24/21 08:49 AM
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 8,700 Chelsea
Lockjaw
OP
14 point
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OP
14 point
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 8,700
Chelsea
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I started tinkering around in the huntstand app, and found out it has an acreage calculator, so, if its anywhere close, it has more than enough lime on it, but I am going to test it to be sure. I think I am going to subsoil the north side, which doesn't have any clover, and see what it looks like and then decided based uopn the soil test. Heck I might just spray the whole field, subsoil it, disk it, wait a couple weeks, and spray it, and keep that up until late august, then plant something Whitetail institute related. The deer seem to like their clover. It's to large a field on the property to have it under perform like it is right now.
Hunstand says its a half acre field. I think its a little bigger than that.
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Lockjaw]
#3430690
06/25/21 10:15 AM
06/25/21 10:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,729 Georgia and Missouri
Semo
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,729
Georgia and Missouri
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I skimmed most of this but it seems you mentioned that fall crops were doing slightly better and it is a high clay content. Obviously, ph in clay soils is always an issue. They are clay soils because they are old, weathered, and lacking nutrients. Clay pans or fragipans can definitely be an issue for root depth and water availability or access water.
So, these low pH clays can just lock up the fertilizer you are dumping in, but this sounds like it may be a water availability issue compounding it. Clay soils require more pressure for plants to uptake the water available. As someone earlier stated, you should focus on building some organic matter in the soil to combat the pH and water holding/freeing issues. The more you turn the soil the more you breakdown any organic matter.
Maybe try fall/winter organic matter adding crops (radishes is one) and then long rooted drought tollerant plants in summer while not turning it over. Remember, that clay soil was weathered and has been losing nutrients for thousands of years and then probably mismanaged by humans for 200+ years. It may take several years to start seeing some progress.
cliff notes....if you want to turn it over one more time ok, but then start building some organic matter in the soil. Stop compacting it.
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Lockjaw]
#3430725
06/25/21 11:09 AM
06/25/21 11:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,852 Kennedy, al
globe
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,852
Kennedy, al
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Pertinent info here! Take a shovel and check several places before you ever use a turning plow. I ruined a field one time that was apparently sitting on top of a good gravel vein. That field never did come back decent with all the rocks and gravel I turned up.
Everything woke turns to shucks
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: CNC]
#3433283
06/29/21 03:04 PM
06/29/21 03:04 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,600 B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,600
B'ham
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You need to work on building what is called "Tilth".
Rip the field. Not with a chisel plow you need a sub soiler a chisel doesn't run that deep and see if you can get someone to spread manure on it then turn that under. It will grow if you do that. For conversation sake........How would you go about maintaining that soil tilth moving forward after this treatment?? Plant cover crops and disk them in. I have not seen where disking twice a year hurts tilth as long as you have a decent amount of residue you are incorporating back into the dirt when you disk. Get some manure in bags, spread it in a place as a test and disk it into that clay... it will grow. I will give you $100 bill if it don't grow like crazy.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: Hardpan in fields
[Re: Lockjaw]
#3433362
06/29/21 05:18 PM
06/29/21 05:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,729 Georgia and Missouri
Semo
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,729
Georgia and Missouri
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You know what I have noticed? The east and north sides of the green fields out there seem to struggle the most. I wonder if that is all the direct sunlight they get and it bakes alot of the moisture out of the soil?
I just got a bunch of rain overnight and thru the morning and it looks like more is coming, so I will check it again this weekend and see what it looks like.
I am sort of torn. Part of me wants to just subsoil it and disk it and then start over, but I have a really good stand of clover on one side of it I hate to mess that up. I have begun to really like clover, because once you get it established, its there. I don't have to wait for it to grow like beans and peas or the fall crops.
I need someone to bring me a load of manure out there. I have 3 fields I could use it on.
South and west facing aspects have less moisture, poorer soils, and less organic matter (in the northern hemisphere).
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