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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3445613
07/20/21 11:44 AM
07/20/21 11:44 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,677 Awbarn, AL
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Dances With Weeds
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Here is an even closer look at the sand and organic matter being separated……If you look closely you’ll see how organic matter acts like “dark matter” for those of you into space stuff……It gets in between the sand and silt particles so that sand particles aren't just piled on sand particles……Look at the tiniest of white specs toward the right of the pic.....There starts becoming a structure to it……Of course keep in mind that we are looking at the tearing apart or separation of that process. Without the OM though the sand will form a surface like concrete. This isn’t food plot magic…..It’s science.
Last edited by CNC; 07/20/21 11:46 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3446053
07/21/21 08:34 AM
07/21/21 08:34 AM
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So now taking it a step farther…….Let’s say our management efforts ARE lowering the soil organic matter %……What impact does that have? As soil OM is lost and the growing conditions decline then it creates an environment where only certain pioneer plants are able to thrive. You have impacted variables like soil moisture, soil tilth, soil structure, aeration, nutrient holding capacity, etc, etc….This is how specie composition is affected and changed……This is the same field years ago dominated completely with crabgrass due to the soil conditions you see above. Compare that to the specie composition now…..same field, really close to the same exact spot. There’s actually a lot more diversity across the field than just what you see in this one pic too with probably 20+ species present now …..The big picture concept to recognize is that soil organic matter influences species composition……..That same concept plays out just the same whether you call it a food plot, timber stand understory, or a quail block…….Changes in soil OM = changes in specie composition due to changes in growing conditions. I think that could be a “natural law”. One plant that has really jumped out at me as the soil has changed is pokeweed. It seems to only establish and grow in my richest spots which suggests that it may be heavily reliant on more improved conditions…….
Last edited by CNC; 07/21/21 08:44 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3446069
07/21/21 08:58 AM
07/21/21 08:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Somebody is gonna read this and hopefully connect the dots ……Take what I just showed and consider what I said about the pokeweed in that it seems to need the richest spots to establish and grow……Also consider that pokeweed seems to be one of the more preferred natural browse species……I’d rank it in the top ten anyways from what I’ve seen so there's most likely a reason the deer prefer it so much……Now think about the study that just came out not too long ago that said that a pokeweed had the same nutrient content within it whether it was grown in Alabama or Iowa…..the difference in the amount of high quality bucks being killed was due the AMOUNT of high quality forage available....
To me, when I take all of those things and put them together I come up with the idea that if I can make the land produce more of an abundance of the higher quality plants then I should be able to produce better higher quality bucks……and what is it that is effecting species composition and determining which of those plants I’m able to grow like pokeweed???.....and effecting the abundance in which I'm able to grow it??? It’s the richness of the soil......and soil organic matter plays a big role in that….. and the chittier the soil the more it impact it has.
Last edited by CNC; 07/21/21 09:00 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: ronfromramer]
#3446146
07/21/21 11:05 AM
07/21/21 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Let me get this straight, are you saying that mowing a field, letting the cuttings lay and decay then cutting that into the soil reduces organic matter in the soil? No comprende, please explain, having a hard time grasping that concept To start with we need to look at the fact that we live in the southeast where decomposition already happens very rapidly in our environment…..The main reason I point this out is so that you get the idea established that organic matter is in a constant state of decay and the soil and other environmental conditions dictate the rate of that decay. Now like I’ve been showing in the last few pics……our actual end goal is the refined product of humus (the black dirt particles)…..We want to not only protect what we have already produced…..but we want to keep increasing the % of it or the richness of it in the soil……Just think about when you see someone’s garden that you think of as being “really rich”….That’s what were after……that’s created from decomposed OM…….In order to build that humus up over time though then you have to basically turn your soil surface into a layered mulch pile. In order to slow down the decomposition process you need the soil to be covered over not only in dead vegetation on the top but also you need to have the different layers and stages of decomposition of that hay or organic matter……This creates a buffer zone across the surface that regulates gas exchanges…… Think of it like a fire and oxygen……If we want a fire to burn slow and low for a long time and not burn up all of our fuel rapidly then what do we do to it??….. We smother it, right…..limit the oxygen to it…….This is a very similar effect to what is happening with your soil OM……If you go out there and completely cut in all the OM you’ve grown then you’ll get a very rapid decay and burn of that OM but there will be little growth in humus % overtime……You wont be growing it but rather just making rapid annual burns of it. That is why when you look at my old pics you see nothing but sand……I wasn’t “building” soil organic matter……I was just burning up any annual growth that I had and perpetuating the condition of being just sand…….This pic is from a few years ago but same field as I’ve been showing…..You can see how the OM is building as compared to the old pics of white sand.
Last edited by CNC; 07/21/21 11:08 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3446147
07/21/21 11:05 AM
07/21/21 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,677 Awbarn, AL
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So to add one more thing to the response now to tie that back to what I was showing with the humus and sand being separated by the rain…. There’s more than just one variable at play here…….It’s chemical and physical……Looking at the last pic I just posted…….If I went in there and tried to "cut in" my next crop of OM into the soil……not only would I rapidly increase the rate of decay but I would expose all of that refined humus to the elements and the pounding of the rain drops……Just like you saw in my previous pics I could take that whole layer of black dirt you see and have the rain separate it out and wash it away if I managed that way. ........Here it is again.
Last edited by CNC; 07/21/21 11:28 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3446174
07/21/21 11:52 AM
07/21/21 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
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This is something that often isnt taken into consideration with these discussions. Most folks are running in very low OM conditions with their plantings but they don’t see the impacts to the same degree or they may see different types of issues…..The picture below is the reason why. All of our fields fall somewhere on that chart and it makes a HUUUGE difference where……The field I’m showing is way down there in the far bottom right somewhere I do believe. It's considered to be a "fine silt" on the soil map. ALL of these soil types are designed to function hand in hand with decomposing organic matter though…..it’s like a two part recipe…..Some of them are just far more impacted by its absence.
Last edited by CNC; 07/21/21 11:54 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3446202
07/21/21 12:56 PM
07/21/21 12:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,957 Lower AL
k bush
12 point
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12 point
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Posts: 5,957
Lower AL
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When you rub a small sample between two fingers, does it feel gritty or like cake flour ? Does it fill the voids in your fingerprints ?
"Cull" is just another four letter word...
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: k bush]
#3446205
07/21/21 01:05 PM
07/21/21 01:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,677 Awbarn, AL
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When you rub a small sample between two fingers, does it feel gritty or like cake flour ? Does it fill the voids in your fingerprints ?
I'd say more like flour......it's very fine. If I remember right its labeled as a Conecuh Fine Silt but dont hold me to that
Last edited by CNC; 07/21/21 01:06 PM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3446423
07/21/21 07:38 PM
07/21/21 07:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,677 Awbarn, AL
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RFR……I was just poking at y’all in fun a little bit with the comment on perspective but that really does get overlooked. Think about this and just use your eyes and common sense……How much better do you suppose my field of fall cereal grains and crimson clover grow now with that layer of rich topsoil present as opposed to when it was just sand?? …Let’s suppose that the neighbor has the same chitty silt/sand to deal with……..which they very likely do since this is a common soil type around here….. But let’s say they don’t understand these concepts and have zero OM in their fields.........Hmmmmm………… People lose perspective on the things that should be at the top of the list for being important. ……Just like if I went out here right now, plowed everything under, planted it full of IC peas, and then sat back and watched them get decimated about the time you could tell it’s a pea……..It would serve no purpose and many folks would never even bat an eye at the degradation that would be caused to the fragile silt soil system in the process. They wouldn’t see the rain separating the humus from the sand/silt and they wouldn’t recognize how much they just shot themselves in the foot for the fall as soil OM was lost……They would look at my summer field the way it is now and see nothing positive happening……They wouldn’t see the rich soil being protected from the heavy rains and held in place by the diverse root systems…..or the new round of biomass being produced to keep growing the richness of the humus……and how that will effect the quality of my fall plots and the deer that use it then.......when it matters the most........Folks just tend to see an old field of “weeds” ………Where’s the perspective in that?
Last edited by CNC; 07/21/21 07:56 PM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3446744
07/22/21 10:09 AM
07/22/21 10:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,677 Awbarn, AL
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Back to the soil triangle for a minute so that this part is understood…..The field I’m showing and many places in southern Alabama are likely gonna fall out below that red line I drew.…..That means your soils are less than 10% clay and made up mostly of sand and silt…… https://ucanr.edu/sites/mgslo/newsletters/Soil_-_The_Basis_for_a_Healthy_Garden28260.htmSandy soils, like those found here in Nipomo, generally accept water quickly and have good aeration, but can’t hold water well. So, both water and nutrients are too easily lost, and plants may not thrive.
Clay soils retain more water and nutrients than sand, but there is little percolation of the water and less oxygen for the plant due to smaller pore sizes than those of coarser textures.
****Finally, loam, what gardeners dream about as the vernal equinox draws near, is the ideal soil, holding water, nutrients, and oxygen in a balance of sand, clay and organic matter.****This is why we are not all built on the same foundation and why organic matter plays such a big role in these sand/silt soils. It’s where just about all of your nutrient and water holding capacity is coming from in these soils. We need to have perspective with each situation…… https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/SS/SS66100.pdf
Last edited by CNC; 07/22/21 10:12 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3447386
07/23/21 08:10 AM
07/23/21 08:10 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,677 Awbarn, AL
CNC
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Heavy rains here just about daily ……Notice again the “chocolate and vanilla” swirly basically painting a picture of the water flow for you…..…….This is where the humus is settling out. What is the most important thing that’s occurring here long term?? I'd say topsoil loss.... The humus versus the sand/silt If you’re a really deep thinker then you can look at those pics and then look at the one below and see that its not just “food plots” we’re talking about where organic matter is lacking in the topsoil and there’s more than one way to lose it or mismanage it………What does that do then to the overall amount of “quality forage production”???? There were huge swaths of poor sand with no topsoil across this entire tract and its not uncommon to see such.
Last edited by CNC; 07/23/21 10:58 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3447686
07/23/21 03:04 PM
07/23/21 03:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Looking at the last pic and keeping in mind what’s been said about the total amount of quality forage being produced…….Another question to be asking for the deep thinking crowd is……. “How is this impacting the generational nutrition of the deer herd?”…….
I think this is what causes a lot of the differences you see in the deer herd across the landscape that people often attribute to being good genetics or like the discussion now in the serious forum about Gastonberg just being “ a good area” for big bucks……While there’s a few places in the state where genetics ARE playing a role……I think the vast majority of the noticeable differences people are seeing in isolated areas that "just seem to grow ‘em bigger" than other places comes from improved nutrition over a 10-20+ year time period. That is influenced by soil and understory management as well as soil type. For example, places like Sedgefield probably have doe herds that have been feeding on good quality understory forage for decades worth of generations......mamas and great-great-great-great-great- grandmamas that have all fed on good quality understory forage and those doe herds are kicking out quality buck fawns for the area. I think the pic above looks like the reverse of that.
Last edited by CNC; 07/23/21 03:05 PM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3448078
07/24/21 08:40 AM
07/24/21 08:40 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Something I believe would REALLY help these soil building processes cycle and build more rapidly would be if someone had the ability to add chicken litter to their fields…..I know there is some debate on its use and turkeys….It can be slow and tough though to build “fertility” in low fertility sands without some help and chicken litter would bring in nutrients and tons of decomposing OM full of highly active microbial life all in one application…… I think you could turn around fields and make them highly productive in a short time period if you had easy access to litter and spreaders. This is also where the idea of moving cattle through an area to help improve the soil comes from……It’s another form of bringing in manure and applying it to help the natural processes along. That’s kinda where I’m at right now with things when I look at what is happening with the soil in my field……It’s like making a pot of soup and giving it a taste test……It’s pretty good but it’s still needing juuuuust a little something else to make it really good. I think manure would be that ingredient. It would assist in both growth and decomposition
Last edited by CNC; 07/24/21 08:41 AM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3448329
07/24/21 05:13 PM
07/24/21 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2020
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Wapiti55
8 point
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If you think manure would be beneficial, and wanted to stay away from chicken, then a horse farm or dairy may be your better option. Most horse barns have a excess supply of manure.
Last edited by Wapiti55; 07/24/21 05:13 PM.
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Re: A Lil’ Tractor Time
[Re: CNC]
#3448375
07/24/21 06:06 PM
07/24/21 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
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I think there's a few routes you could go depending on the scale of situation......Someone with 1/4-1/2 acre plots could probably shovel out the horse stables and spread it on their fields by hand.......folks dealing with bigger fields and more acreage might have to go with something that can be mechanically spread......The dang thing about it for me is that my FIL actually cleans chicken houses out and spreads litter as a side business but its up in Marshall Co....
Last edited by CNC; 07/24/21 06:07 PM.
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