I know this has been talked about a lot on here. But I have been noticing here in my neck of the woods that more and more mature bucks are showing thinner racks and almost no brow tines, while having long tines everywhere else and are pretty wide.

How much of this would you think is soil or how much would you think could be credited to genes ? Or could it be another factor like density ? I'm in North Al. ( etowah ). For two years running I've shot 5 year old bucks ( best guess ) with this issue. Mediocre mass , little to no brows, 18 inches wide and good tines besides the brows. If I could post em up I would

I'd speculate it's some of both. We are all limited to the genetics we have. I don't think that terra / soil is a high quality deer growing area. May be too many mouths for the amount of food.

Many, probably most herds are high graded taking out the bucks with the most potential for high scoring racks before they reach age 3-4 and allowing mostly mediocre bucks to be the ones survive to older age classes if any do……This is likely one factor involved.

I had a guy that owns a high fence tell us that in Alabama if you don’t have the genetics there isn’t much you can do. He said feeding and planting might add 15 inches at best over the deers life. I killed a six year old deer on our place that had been 6 points his entire life. We Kill 115 inch 8 points that are 4 and 5 years old. I’ve only killed 2 deer in 3 years and both weighed over 200 pounds, they just don’t have big racks. 9 miles up the road and across the interstate my old club had worse habitat, but it was easy to get a 130 to 140 inch deer on camera , and we actually killed a few and found a couple dead. According to that deer breeder it’s all about genetics.

I’m short and fat. No matter what I ate as a child I was only going to be so big. I think deer are the same way. We have killed 6 year old that went 120” and 5 year olds that went near 150” off of the same property.

Once the nutritional requirements are met it’s genetics, they will trump age and most everything else quickly. Half of my 1 year olds this year scored in the 170’s.

Genetic potential is not anywhere near the top of the list for main limiting factors across Alabama currently……The main factor at play is lack of age and the second is probably high grading the best potential ones……Look at one of the last bucks I posted on my tracking thread…..the big tall rack that’s pushing 140”…….That’s a three year old deer…..It probably weighed 150 lbs tops…….Now I’m not saying that to hack on anyone for shooting it…..I shot a 154” four year old myself……but those deer show that the gentic potential is there…..Let those same deer get to seven years old and you’ve likely got a 170”-180” deer or better……Very few of these deer ever make it past 3-4 years old though even on the “good land”……. The ones that make it if any do are most often the lower grade ones that folks have passed

This guy knows a thing or two about what he’s talking about. It’s the very reason people pay ungodly amounts of money to hunt in specific places. It has to do with when the state restocked with deer. Nutrition plays a large role in allowing those genetics to blossom, but certain areas in this state produce better deer consistently and it’s not just because of soil fertility.

Mud, blood, age & nutrition. All are equally important ingredients in growing big bucks

Sure do wish there was a way to tell which does had the 'good' genes.

I agree. Here is what people do... They shoot the deer first. Then say - well, I don't have good enough genetics to justify letting the grow another year. A lot of the time they are showing me a picture of a "5 year old deer" or "mature deer" that looks like 3 1/2 to me. Just because they are fat don't mean they are 5 years old. Has anyone ever stopped to think maybe they are just well fed? If you feed them corn they get fat. That's common sense. That also doesn't make them 5 years old. That's also common sense. None of which is common in today's world.

Alabama has better genetics than people want to believe all across the State. Not every deer is going to make 120". Even fewer are going to make 140". There are deer running around Birmingham in the city limits that will score over 150". ALL DAY. How did they get here? Did they hide in a truck that came down I65 from Illinois? The answer is NO. The difference is they are not killed by Bubba when they are 2.5.

That's the answer. How you want to hunt and what you want to shoot doesn't change the facts.

Agree with this - high grading is the problem.

It’s not really a question about can genetics matter…… The question is much more about what are currently the most influential factors at play dictating what we see killed across Alabama??......and genetics aint at the top of the list …….After age and high grading……generational nutrition differences is another factor having more influence than genetics and what I believe people often mistake for it…….

This is easy enough to understand and I'd agree that this is the case almost everywhere. But keep in mind I'm talking about mature deer and how genetics verses soil factors in to this age group. Personally, I don't think that soil will make a deer start producing brow tines. It may help them if they are already there, but when they don't show up, that's gotta be genetics. I can see how mass is affected by soil, that's a no brainer there.

Hunters need to stop high grading their best 2s and 3s and learn to low grade their crappy 3, 4, 5, 6, year old etc. deer.

I don't know how you think soil doesn't play a role. Antlers are made up of calcium and phosphorus right? Alabama's poor souls severely inhibit plants from taking up minerals from the soil. One of the charts I have from whitetail institute says at a pH of 5, only about 30 percent of your fertilizer is able to be utilized the plants.

On my lease none of my plots tested above a pH of 5.2. Further, I have noticed a decided preference by the deer to eat plants on my plots in the sections that have dark soil. I've got 1050 acres and less than 10 planted in properly limed plots.

If I had 100 acres planted in properly limed and fertilized plots I would bet money I would see bucks with better racks, without having to worry about high grading.

You may see a slight increase in better racks , however , with much hunting pressure and continued high grading the increase will be short lived. You'll just kill more "green bucks". Now you improve habitat and lay off the high grading you'll be more likely sustain your improved racks and age class.

You’ve always got to worry about high grading anytime you are trying to maximize rack size. You can have the best nutrition around and still not have anything big to hunt if you shoot your best 2 and 3 yr olds Every year as 110-125” 8s and 10s. Do this for 3-5 yrs straight and it doesn’t matter what you plant or feed. Managers serious about growing the best deer their property can grow, shoot based on one thing, AGE.

I think managing using "total buck harvest" as a metric is also another valid way of accomplishing the same goal of having bucks in the advanced age classes.....BSK use to talk about it a good bit and it always seemed to me as the all around simplest way of doing things and one that allowed the hunters the most freedom to just enjoy hunting while still managing for older bucks.....I think they did something to the effect of counting unique bucks per camera survey and then coming up with a total amount they could kill by taking 20% of that.....or maybe it was 30%........In other words if you count 10 bucks then you can kill 2-3 of them regardless of age, antlers, etc....

I revised that sentence CNC to more accurately reflect what I was trying to convey.

If you’re just wanting to be able to kill decent bucks, and a good one here and there, then yes, you can absolutely do that and there’s nothing at all wrong with that hunting philosophy. If youre wanting to seriously manage for the biggest/best racks that your property can produce, like to OP seems to be wanting to do, then you need to be carrying as many bucks into the 4, 5, and 6+ age classes as you can and you can’t do that by randomly busting 20-30% of your buck population each year. Poaching, vehicle kills, rut stress, ehd, and natural mortality make it hard enough for bucks to make it into older age classes, let alone intentionally killing them at 1-2-3 yrs of age. If youre trying to grow the best bucks your property can produce, Targeted harvest based on age is the only way to do that. The bucks you kill are the ones that are on the low end of the scale for their age class once they get to be 4-5-6. Like someone’s tag line says “it takes a long time to grow an old friend”.