I have read more than one book from the 1700s and early 1800s that spoke of the burning the Creeks did each year. And they were doing it in late winter, the same time most of it is done now. I don't remember which writer said it, but one was amazed that there didn't seem to be any organization to it, but they all seemed to just know when it was time to set the fires.

No, I don't believe reducing the number of gobblers killed would increase the population. I just think there are too many hunters out there... killing one



I agree



Interesting, I was reading "Plenty Coups" (Crow from the early 1800's) today and there was a note about how they never used fire to burn the grasslands and he could only remember twice it was used in warfare. Both times to drive enemies out of willow thickets along a creek. This was in Montana prairie, undoubtedly one of the most pyric communities around. He noted that buffalo need the grass. Took me by surprise that he didn't remember them using it to "refresh" the prairie! and grow more grass!

That’s saying the same thing. You’re saying that the total number of gobblers killed in the Spring is affecting the overall population. That may not be what you’re trying to say.

We'll see the same thing with bucks in a few years.

Three a season and one with antler restrictions just won't be enough for a vocal Gotta Shoot Big Bucks group. It'll drop to two or one, "because no one needs more than one."

And in 10-15 years after that when little has changed, just as little has changed since 2006, nothing else can be done other than for hunters to swing on the rope as the gallows floor squeaks on its hinges.

We had a good thing for decades. Only in the last 15-20 years has a lot of f'king around with things created upheaval. But, y'know, progress.

Not only not what I am trying to say but literally not what I said. The fact that I think there are too many hunters out there has nothing to do with the total number of gobblers harvested affecting the overall population. I still think there are too many hunters killing one.

You’re talking in circles on the nesting season burns and the amount of gobblers killed in the Spring.

Hows that? nesting season burns have nothing to do with gobblers killed in spring.
Let me know how I am talking in circles and I'll straighten it out for you.
Ill try - 1) the amount of gobblers killed in spring doesn't affect poult recruitment or the turkey population as a whole. 2) I don't believe early season harvest affects nesting but I'll see the data says. 3)I think there are too many turkey hunters and we have made it too easy. None of these facts affects the others.
That should be linear enough.

He was speaking tongue in check Brad. I’m with him too it was so much more fun 10-15 years ago when there weren’t a million turkey hunters in the woods.

I’m with gobbler on this. Fire to improve habitat is never a bad thing. There are more turkey hunters today than ever, and that’s not translating into a sustainable population. I don’t have the answer, but the limits and season changes the state is implementing is a direct correlation. It may be than you can kill 5 gobblers a year and not hurt a thing. Common sense says that if you remove 1 gobbler before it can successfully breed a group of hens, than that very well may be a group of hens that go unbred. When you are trying to increase something, you do as you can to eliminate any decreases. We can argue that it’s a lousy attempt in which I would agree with you. But the last thing the state wants to do is get to a point to where there is no season, and loose that resource. I can tell you that the number of turkeys today vs the 90’s has drastically changed where I hunt. It was nothing to hear 10 plus gobblers any given day. Today I’ve got pockets that hold two or three and there has been little to no change in habitat. Look at how many folks are looking for “turkey rights” these days. It use to be as simple as asking for permission, as people held deer leases and didn’t care or know a thing about it. Most folks don’t have the time or skill set to kill the limit of gobblers each year. It’s the number of folks killing 1 or 2, on top of uncheck predation. The wild turkey will never be a deer. They will never be in the same numbers population wise and were never intended to be I don’t believe.

In my location “late winter” ended right around Feb 16th this year and it became “early spring”…..You could see the switch flip and the vegetation kick into a different gear… Most of my pears are bloomed out already….wild plums are blooming…….early peaches…..water oaks are turning green…. The sky was full of smoke here again Monday with folks burning. Its not late winter here and hasn’t been for weeks.

Outlawing decoys again would be a good first step in reducing the number of hunters. Make it harder for these "sit all day green field hunters". Stevie Wonder can kill one if he sits behind decoys on a green field long enough.

This article that was posted the other day says that a number of studies show that 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the birds……Is this not the exact opposite of what y’all are saying with their being a problem of too many hunters killing one??……If we think about this situation a little deeper that means that those 10% of hunters arent killing them all on opening day either…..It means that it likely takes them a little while to kill all of those birds……Correct??.......You know I bet you could look at the GC numbers and see exactly what rate of the birds were killed on each day for each county.....Well, someone can anyways.


https://www.mossyoak.com/our-obsess...b74Rc20eHRgGHZ_PtwNdaVxrCqgLdUhBCH8xjNYo


"A number of studies show that 90 percent of the turkeys are being harvested each season by 10 percent of the hunters in each state."

He lost me when he referres to lack of fire as causing declines. In the midwest and west fires arent decreasing and bird numbers are still going down. My guess is the FS burns more in alabama today than it did in the 80's.

I guess I need to find these number of studies... but offhand I'm highly skeptical of that statistic. Unless he is considering poaching.

I'd put midwest decline into two potential categories and it may be a combination of the two. Fence to fence planting leaving no brushy areas and neonic seed treatments.

Use missouri as an example. Why is the population booming in the northern ag areas and decreasing in the Ozarks (Almost entirely forested)?

I have my assumptions.

I actually thought that 10% figure sounded fairly reasonable for Alabama…..Its not easy around here for the average Joe weekend warrior just to randomly go out and kill a gobbler by luck. You can go out and sit in the woods and luck up and kill a deer pretty easily……You can take a worm and put it on a hook and luck up and catch a fish pretty easily……But you don’t just walk out the door and accidentally call a Gobbler into shotgun range very often….. I’ll freely admit to being a part of a good number of amateur solo and group hunts over the years and very rarely were any of them even remotely close to successful. Most of the turkey killers that I know are the hardcore ones that do their homework….they go out and pattern birds ahead of time….. and they stay out in the woods all day, etc……I think a lot of people probably harass them but only a few probably kill them….We don’t have to guess though because the GC data says exactly what % this is…….We know how many people killed 1 and how many killed 5 and which day each were killed.

Does everyone agree that we are in a warming trend that is likely causing the turkeys to start breeding earlier and that change in the game is a factor at play to consider??

Just thinking more about the different potential impacts of fire during the nesting process………It would seem that turkeys and their breeding process heavily revolves around them being on a consistent pattern with the least amount of disturbance to the routine/pattern for them to be successful. How does fire during the nesting season impact their patterns not just from a nesting perspective but also from drawing turkeys off their current routine to concentrate on the new fresh burns???.....If holding things stable during breeding is the name of the game for success then constantly shuffling the turkeys around all over the chessboard (hens and gobblers) and altering their daily routines during breeding by dropping fire here today…..there two days from now…… over yonder next week….that is not optimal. Alter the game board outside of the breeding/nesting time period and see if it makes a difference....again considering that it is likely happening earlier now.

Also, on this note……I was thinking more about the smaller amount of natural fire that Gobbler commented on that would have occurred in the spring…..From the lighting strike stuff we talked about it would seem like that fire was more of a late spring fire….Wasnt it late April and May for our highest spring probability??.....If hens sit on their nests for about 28 days then these lightening storms would line up fairly closely to hatching wouldn’t they???.....

The reason I bring this up is because I’ve noticed….and I’m sure others have too…..that when I go out and mow down a bunch of the understory around my field during that time of year I attract hawks like a magnet…..Why?.......Because I’ve stirred up and scattered a chitload of field mice and given them a bunch of easy targets to go after…….What if Mother Nature is purposely scattering a bunch of field mice in late spring with low intensity fire to give the tiny poults some cover??......Meaning, are there 50 little poults out there as targets for the hawks during this time period…..OR…. are there 50 little poults in amongst 5,000 scattered rat targets of similar size? Sorta like how trapping gives them a chance to get through the critical time period of nesting……the late spring fires may help them get through the critical early bird stage by temporarily overwhelming the hawks with targets.

Here you go.....I'm guessing this natural fire system looks something similar to this..........March is by far the wettest month of the year with Feb and July neck and neck for 2nd place.....August and October are the driest.....August is also a peak lightning month.

I would guess that Alabama wasn't one of those studies. Here is simple GC numbers. 60,000 hunters killed 25,468 birds. Your proposition would mean that 6,000 hunters killed 22,948, 4 birds per hunter (and the other 54,000 killed 2,520 turkeys - .05 turkeys per hunter or a bird per 21 hunters) Pretty unrealistic, especially considering that turkey hunter survey indicate only 2.4% of hunters report killing 4. According to the Dept, 61% of hunters report killing 1 bird. That is 36,000 hunters and 36,000 birds (by their own numbers and yea, that is MORE than GC reports indicating how screwed up or harvest data reports are). Bottom line is there is NO WAY that anywhere close to 10% of the hunters are killing 90% of the birds. The best 10% may be killing half or less than total harvest but that is pure speculation on my part. Im not going to search for it but I believe Chamberlain states that 90% of the harvest occurs in the first 2 weeks. That would also make having 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the gobblers impossible.



Hate to say it but you will never get "everyone" to agree on pretty much anything. One of the things I tend to track due to what I do for a living and my recreational interests is spring. My observation this year is we are running a little late. When we burn longleaf in the younger stages (less than 5 or so years), we are HIGHLY interested in when the candles start to swell and extend. Usually we have to stop burning them my the last week of February or first of March (I have data going back nearly 20 years on this). This occurs slightly AFTER the beginning of blooms of Plums and Bradford pears and before dogwoods. Nearly every year we hunt the last week of quail season (last week of Feb) when the first Chickasaw plums start blooming. This year, the plums and pears didn't start good till last week, nearly 2 weeks late. Last week I looked at a 2 year old longleaf stand to see if I could burn it and would have been able to if we hadn't gotten into another rain pattern for 2 weeks. This is also a week or 2 late. I have heard gobblers gobble and seen them strut in December. They start early some years and late others. I hunted good gobbling birds opening weekend in the snow in Alabama and 70 degrees.

Regarding your next squiggly line chart, While March is the wettest month, you continually discount the volatility of the fuel this time of year and the lack of volatility in summer/fall. We will be burning tomorrow and it rained all day here today. Won't be able to do that in August. Again I ask, have you ever carried a driptorch? June is a peak lightning month as is July. March - May is also a high lighting season. Lets discount those as well

Likely wouldn’t have ignited and carried as easily after the wettest two months of the year until things dried out more since grazers were consuming and trampling a lot of the fine 1 hr fuels that you’ll likley be using to carry your fire tomorrow. Yes, July is a peak lightening month too but it is also tied with Feb for the second wettest. As far as not being able to get a fire to burn during August under dry conditions.....you've lost me on that one.