Got one more thought to throw out there and then I’m finished……

Let’s say we did start moving the starting date to March 10 and then maybe even farther back to the first Saturday and possibly to March 1… etc…..Jackson Co would be your canary in the coal mine to watch for when “starting too early” begins to impact population density... IF….IF….it ever does negatively impact it……It’s not gonna have a detrimental effect evenly across the whole state though …..As you move the starting date back more and more….”too early” would progress from the northeast corner of the state to the southwest in the exact opposite trend we see this later start causing with kill trends….again…..IF….it ever does cause a negative impact to the population…..

This is aldeer, so I see no problem with discussing things that are never gonna happen, but any casual reader should understand that it's never gonna happen. The literary term for this discussion is "adynaton." Paul used it in Galatians when he mentioned the possibility of an angel from heaven coming down and preaching a different gospel from the one that he preached. It wasn't gonna happen, and neither will anyone reading this ever see a March 1 turkey opener in AL.

That ship has long since sailed and whatever changes are made from here on out will be in the other direction, towards later openers. April 1st is what was originally presented for this season; it was the work of a few guys on the CAB to keep it in March at all. Once they finish their terms, there won't be any barriers to making it be April.

And I’ll get my running shoes hydrodipped in bottomland 😀

[/quote] And I’ll get my running shoes hydrodipped in bottomland 😀[/quote]

Solid move

Aww, c’mon now PCP, you just gotta keep the faith.... .... Seriously though, I’ll settle for March 10 but not a day later!!!.....Southwest Alabama deserves to get to hunt their prime turkey days just as much as the folks in Jackson Co do.

Oh yeah, by the way PCP…..you were right when you said I wasn’t giving some of the old long beards enough credit to avoid hunters. You’re right, we arent killing all of the older birds…. I do still believe however that whatever the real percent taken out may be…..legalization of decoys raised that number pretty significantly……

March 20 used to be the opener. Now is the 15th down south. When does Florida open?

For the folks keeping score we should pass last year's kill totals statewide of roughly 14,900 birds either today or tomorrow.......We'll probably still be slightly in under the total for two years ago when its all said and done which was around 16,900.

The fact that we passed last year’s totals may make it seem like the later start didn’t have an impact but it did……Without the later start we would have likely been closer to the numbers posted two years ago and possibly even higher……This basic graph represents what I believe has happened…..We’re still following the same annual up and down fluctuations we always have but we’ve dropped the base line turkey populations down to a lower level with all the corn baiting that has likely increased coon populations……Add that on top of the previous effect decoys likely had on the quality of gobbler age structure and overall hunting experience along with a couple more minor factors and you get the perception of the Alabama turkey decline…..which isn’t completely untrue…..

It may change slightly over the next few days but this is gonna be pretty close to how this season is going to end in comparison to last year’s kill numbers…..Jackson Co is gonna end up being the county with the biggest decrease…..Knowing what we know now that should be expected.....I would also point out again the counties in south Alabama having MAJOR swings of 30-50%…..If you don’t take notice of that and ask why then you’re just being willfully ignorant.

Is anyone familiar with Limestone and Morgan Counties???.......We're dealing with low kill numbers of less than 100 in each county but they both saw big increases compared to previous years totals......Maybe folks in that area have started trapping to try and expand populations or something.

I’m ignorant on the debate here - what is your theory on increased harvest in south?

I missed this post back when you made it; I certainly agree with you that decoy legalization increased the harvest. I much preferred them being illegal. But nobody asked me and they are legal, and I doubt it will ever change. TPTB don't want AL to be unique in our approach to turkey management; they want us to be just like everyone else.

Still, I doubt that the gobbler harvest has made any significant difference in the overall turkey population. If it has, it would be in the places with very few turkeys. If we are overharvesting the gobblers, then that should reveal itself in a really skewed gobbler/hen ratio. I haven't seen that anywhere that I hunt. I can't tell any difference in the ratio now than what it has been at any time in my life.

Ironically, the place that I have seen the worst gobbler/hen ratio was in KS. The place where it was the worst had a one bird limit. Over those 4 days, I saw over 100 hens, maybe 10 jakes, and just 2 longbeards. The outfitter that controlled nearly all the land in the area had sold too many hunts. He recognized that and cut back some the next year and the problem went away. The jakes became longbeards and the problem solved itself in a year.

That just confirmed my belief that it isn't the state who decides the turkey harvest; it will always be the landowner or his agent or lessee.

Good question Zbrann. Birds are not being reported in some county. We all know this as a fact. Naw I ain’t seen any birds. Nor killed any on my places I hunt.

More hunters than ever, still killing the same turkeys or less in areas. Anywhere on that map with large public land chunks is harvesting less this year. Go figure

If you’re talking about the overall trend across the state……I think the northern part of the state and the higher elevations were more negatively impacted by the late start because they have such late green-ups compared to everyone else…..In the past they were essentially getting to hunt an earlier pre-rut time period when gobblers are the most susceptible that no one else was really getting to hunt in the same manner. Once gobblers get henned up then everyone is on the same playing field of trying to kill one…..like all the bucks being locked down with a doe. Basically this season most everyone started the season either “henned up” or right on the cusp of it…..That had less of an impact on the southern counties because they had already been starting the season after "hen up"...... so their season wasn’t as effected by that variable…..Taking away those prime days from the northern and higher elevation counties…..aka….the late, late green ups…..had a big impact on how many gobblers they killed. That's why you have Jackson being the most impacted....

Those 30-50% swings you see in some of the southern counties are being effected by another variable....."grass"

Something I should have added about some of those southern counties with big swings like Macon, Bullock, Russell......Those big increases are rebounds from 30-35% drops in last year's numbers......You're having a big up, down, up, down cycle.......That pattern is normal but the exaggeration of it is caused by our management practices


In a nutshell there’s an overabundance of “grass” due to our management practices which causes an overabundance of rats which causes and overabundance of predators…. The rats are having MAJOR boom bust cycles within these grass prairies that follows annual rainfall trends….more rain = that much more grass……the overabundance of predators that are feeding on those boom/bust cycles of rats are likely experiencing population swings too but they are also likely switching prey sources in the rat bust years and ultimately causing the turkey population to follow the same major boom/busts as the rats……Moderate the grass and I think you’ll moderate the rat population and make it easier to manage for more stable turkey populations instead of these dramatic up down swings.

This doesn’t mean that I’m saying we have to go in and completely change everything we’re doing tomorrow or that I’m saying don’t burn or anything like that…Folks tend to take things as black or white and run with it……We should however, be aware of what is happening though and understand it…..If we do that then maybe we can find ways to mitigate the negative effects.


On a big scale we have two extremes occurring across much of the landscape down here where its either being over grazed or under grazed....both to an extreme......

I hear what you’re saying and its why I think if you’re gonna negotiate starting dates then why not go for having the youth hunt on the first Fri/Sat/Sun in March and go from there with the opener the following weekend……The youth hunt kill numbers are not significant enough to make a hoot of difference anyways…..I think it was 280 birds all weekend this year compared to 1500 birds on opening day alone……And for Pete’s sake….don’t voluntarily give back the 8 days in May because it’s a little hot or the bugs are bad…..If folks don’t want to go then don’t go…..but if it isn’t negatively effecting the population then leave those days for folks who DO want to go …..The amount of birds being killed during this time period is also pretty insignificant

CNC the 8 days in Southern part or the state is a joke!! Hunters farting around in the woods during this period most certainly could be bumping hens that are nesting or have hatched poults. That alone, in my opinion is enough reason to close the season the end of April. I would be satisfied if we went back to the traditional opening day of 3/20 and closed 4/30. My preference for a southern zone season would be 3/15 to 4/25.