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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: Mbrock]
#3816592
12/19/22 10:28 PM
12/19/22 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
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Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422
Awbarn, AL
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Coyotes are not a player in changing rut timing. They simply take advantage of a long fawn drop in areas where it occurs. Coyotes do play a role in determining the rut timing…….They can account for 50% fawn mortality or more……The 50% of fawns that DO make it are most likely to be the ones dropped during the window when the most fawns are on the ground. The female offspring most likely to carry on their lineage are the ones born to peak estrous does. It’s the coyote that prevents those single outlier groups from growing while the ones in the middle repopulate. Without the coyote your bell curve would be wider……add the coyote and it narrows. When a coyote bust cycle occurs you should have new growth occur in the doe populations. The new yote population will have a delay before growth occurs again and it will lag behind the deer growth. During the time you’ll have more outliers reproducing and widening the bell curve back out…..As the coyote population catches back up…..it narrows the curve back down again and this is when the peak has the potential to shift.
Last edited by CNC; 12/19/22 10:29 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3816603
12/19/22 10:36 PM
12/19/22 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
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Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
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Awbarn, AL
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Its not changing the genetics, it’s choosing for the ones that’s are the best fit. That’s just natural selection at play. The whole purpose for things being designed the way they are is so that the specie is able to adapt to environmental change over time. These things are not static.
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3816611
12/19/22 10:50 PM
12/19/22 10:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 20,532 colbert county
cartervj
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 20,532
colbert county
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Its not changing the genetics, it’s choosing for the ones that’s are the best fit. That’s just natural selection at play. The whole purpose for things being designed the way they are is so that the specie is able to adapt to environmental change over time. These things are not static. I’m pretty sure the average conception dates have remained the same The only thing that changes is the intensity In the south there will always be outliers. In a mixed deer herd that has been restocked from numerous sources will further the spread. Welcome to Alabama. I’ll say I know of one place that date changed drastically. The club I was in and ran. The rut had always been around Christmas just like Waterloo. In 15 years it has moved to third week of January. I can only surmise the Waterloo genetics have been removed for the most part. I think they have a small rut when it used to be but the definitive rut is third week of January now.
“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: Lonster]
#3816686
12/20/22 06:51 AM
12/20/22 06:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,702 Right behind you
Mbrock
Fancy
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Fancy
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,702
Right behind you
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MBrock and CNC are both correct. You guys will have to disagree to disagree on your differences. 😂👍
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3816858
12/20/22 10:51 AM
12/20/22 10:51 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
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Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422
Awbarn, AL
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So going all the way back to 3FFarms original issue……..What if he’s just in a boom cycle of yotes and they’re clipping off outlier fawns and tightening the bell curve for his area???…….Isnt that a good thing and exactly what should be happening??.......Wouldnt the simplest route be to just ease up on any doe harvest in this situation???
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3816864
12/20/22 10:58 AM
12/20/22 10:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,600 B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,600
B'ham
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This thread is sort of like envisioning Biden in a chain fight with Corn Pop.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3816910
12/20/22 11:58 AM
12/20/22 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
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Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422
Awbarn, AL
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The more I think about it I believe many folks are likely overcomplicating deer management these days on an individual property level. Just sitting back and shooting the good ones is a perfectly acceptable management strategy…..It’s the old bull on the hill strategy.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3816957
12/20/22 01:13 PM
12/20/22 01:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 7,000 Tuscaloosa
Booger
Picker
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Picker
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 7,000
Tuscaloosa
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This thread reads like a school lecture. 😂
GO NOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: Wapiti55]
#3816975
12/20/22 01:42 PM
12/20/22 01:42 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
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Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
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Posts: 23,422
Awbarn, AL
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CNC, surely you can appreciate the irony of you accusing others of over complicating anything! 😂🤷🏼♂️ Sorry, but I just don’t see it…….
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3817025
12/20/22 03:16 PM
12/20/22 03:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,073 Elmore County
Frankie
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,073
Elmore County
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So going all the way back to 3FFarms original issue……..What if he’s just in a boom cycle of yotes and they’re clipping off outlier fawns and tightening the bell curve for his area???…….Isnt that a good thing and exactly what should be happening??.......Wouldnt the simplest route be to just ease up on any doe harvest in this situation??? No , I'm a greedy predator, I decide what lIves and dies not the coyotes. I'll kill him take his food as mine . .
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: Frankie]
#3817244
12/20/22 07:29 PM
12/20/22 07:29 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422
Awbarn, AL
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So going all the way back to 3FFarms original issue……..What if he’s just in a boom cycle of yotes and they’re clipping off outlier fawns and tightening the bell curve for his area???…….Isnt that a good thing and exactly what should be happening??.......Wouldnt the simplest route be to just ease up on any doe harvest in this situation??? No , I'm a greedy predator, I decide what lIves and dies not the coyotes. I'll kill him take his food as mine . . The difference in the first rut with humans managing the doe herd versus coyotes.......Technically over the long term coyotes are gonna go through cycles that will make it look like a little of both during different time periods......that back and forth, back and forth from one to the other is what adjusts the peak timing if needed
Last edited by CNC; 12/20/22 07:30 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: Mbrock]
#3817349
12/20/22 08:53 PM
12/20/22 08:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,064 Tallassee
G/H
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,064
Tallassee
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That’s a fact. I get hammered for recommending doe harvest on LARGE properties where it’s nowhere near as detrimental as the 40-100 acre landowners thinking they can all kill 4-5 each and it be sustainable. It’s simply not. Moderate doe harvest on large cooperatives is a good thing and makes for some dang fine hunting. Moderate harvest on every small farm parcel is a disaster.
I’ve preached cooperatives to every ear that would listen for a decade or longer. I say it in every deer management presentation, club meeting etc. Folks are likely sick of hearing it, but without good communication and similar objectives neighbors make enemies rather than friends and cooperators. Then ppl start killing out of spite. Which is insane and childish. We are bad about this. We have around 3900 acres and there has probably been 5 does killed so far
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: Frankie]
#3817423
12/20/22 09:58 PM
12/20/22 09:58 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
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Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
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Awbarn, AL
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Also I don't believe your graphics right . I believe the rut will still stretch over the same amount of time but just fewer does
You may still have a similar total range in dates from the start to end of the first cycle but the coyote scenario on bottom should produce fewer outlier does. This allows the older bucks to claim the very few outliers that still do occur on the front and back end and it suppresses the younger bucks to just participating in the peak time period…….With the graph on top managed strictly by hunters, you have a scenario where young bucks are likely more stressed trying to compete for the many more outlier does that exist on each end of the range……….Basically you have something like a 30/30/30 split up top versus 10/80/10 on bottom if you get what I’m saying…
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Red Wolves vs Coyotes
[Re: CNC]
#3817464
12/20/22 10:29 PM
12/20/22 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422 Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,422
Awbarn, AL
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Age structure of doe groups should also be playing a factor I do believe........
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