Coyotes do play a role in determining the rut timing…….They can account for 50% fawn mortality or more……The 50% of fawns that DO make it are most likely to be the ones dropped during the window when the most fawns are on the ground. The female offspring most likely to carry on their lineage are the ones born to peak estrous does. It’s the coyote that prevents those single outlier groups from growing while the ones in the middle repopulate. Without the coyote your bell curve would be wider……add the coyote and it narrows.

When a coyote bust cycle occurs you should have new growth occur in the doe populations. The new yote population will have a delay before growth occurs again and it will lag behind the deer growth. During the time you’ll have more outliers reproducing and widening the bell curve back out…..As the coyote population catches back up…..it narrows the curve back down again and this is when the peak has the potential to shift.

Great theory. But it’s not reality. That’s no different than the misguided perception that removing inferior racked bucks removes that genetic trait from the population. It don’t. Never has. Never will. Coyotes eating a few early or late dropped fawns is not changing the genetically determined estrous cycles in a population.

Its not changing the genetics, it’s choosing for the ones that’s are the best fit. That’s just natural selection at play. The whole purpose for things being designed the way they are is so that the specie is able to adapt to environmental change over time. These things are not static.

I’m pretty sure the average conception dates have remained the same

The only thing that changes is the intensity

In the south there will always be outliers. In a mixed deer herd that has been restocked from numerous sources will further the spread.

Welcome to Alabama.

I’ll say I know of one place that date changed drastically. The club I was in and ran. The rut had always been around Christmas just like Waterloo. In 15 years it has moved to third week of January. I can only surmise the Waterloo genetics have been removed for the most part. I think they have a small rut when it used to be but the definitive rut is third week of January now.

MBrock and CNC are both correct. You guys will have to disagree to disagree on your differences.

😂👍

So going all the way back to 3FFarms original issue……..What if he’s just in a boom cycle of yotes and they’re clipping off outlier fawns and tightening the bell curve for his area???…….Isnt that a good thing and exactly what should be happening??.......Wouldnt the simplest route be to just ease up on any doe harvest in this situation???

This thread is sort of like envisioning Biden in a chain fight with Corn Pop.

The more I think about it I believe many folks are likely overcomplicating deer management these days on an individual property level. Just sitting back and shooting the good ones is a perfectly acceptable management strategy…..It’s the old bull on the hill strategy.

This thread reads like a school lecture. 😂

CNC, surely you can appreciate the irony of you accusing others of over complicating anything! 😂🤷🏼‍♂️

Sorry, but I just don’t see it…….

No , I'm a greedy predator, I decide what lIves and dies not the coyotes. I'll kill him take his food as mine . .

The difference in the first rut with humans managing the doe herd versus coyotes.......Technically over the long term coyotes are gonna go through cycles that will make it look like a little of both during different time periods......that back and forth, back and forth from one to the other is what adjusts the peak timing if needed

Not true , you know why ...... I'm gonna kill as many coyotes as I can .

I don't really care about the rut as for as me killing deer .

Also I don't believe your graphics right . I believe the rut will still stretch over the same amount of time but just fewer does

You says coyotes go through cycles, ,, so do the deer . More of one mean more of the other. Till you have a crash. Some where you have forgotten that .

Trying to let coyotes manage your herd is just not reasonable management . You'll lose even more , have less bucks over time snce the natural mortality rate is higher for bucks

We are bad about this. We have around 3900 acres and there has probably been 5 does killed so far

You may still have a similar total range in dates from the start to end of the first cycle but the coyote scenario on bottom should produce fewer outlier does. This allows the older bucks to claim the very few outliers that still do occur on the front and back end and it suppresses the younger bucks to just participating in the peak time period…….With the graph on top managed strictly by hunters, you have a scenario where young bucks are likely more stressed trying to compete for the many more outlier does that exist on each end of the range……….Basically you have something like a 30/30/30 split up top versus 10/80/10 on bottom if you get what I’m saying…

Age structure of doe groups should also be playing a factor I do believe........