I’m seeing pictures of some VERY stressed bucks this year, due to breeding season being too long, from skewed ratios. Some are very emaciated. I’m not seeing it near as much on balanced properties.

Maybe they are stressed. I think we had a thread earlier that stress can cause antlers to drop early? I’m not sure because the pic was at night but last week I got a pic of what I think is a buck with antlers dropped. It’s a big ole deer. There is zero food in the woods and my deer are in hayfields eating on brown grass. My pitiful food plots ain’t helping much.

I can't even imagine seeing that... like a herd of zebras or something...

This is what I’m talking about Matt…..According to Backwoods Cowboy you just went to his place and told him he didn’t need to shoot does because he wasn’t anywhere near his carrying capacity ……Now I’m telling his “neighbor” literally the same thing and you’re arguing for something different. Are you sure you’re not just trying to argue with me instead of it being about the point??

I know what the text books say and I know how it played out on the King Ranch…..but there’s what the text books say is suppose to happen and then there’s what’s actually occurring in our unique reality. The text books don’t have the rules of the game set the way our landscape and properties are laid out……or with our same hunter density and the impacts of very high feeder densities and very liberal season lengths and liberal doe harvesting rules, no accountability for buck limits, etc etc……You have to apply a solution that’s adapted to fit the realities in front of us instead of just using the generic formula from the text book.

If you look down in that grass you'll probably find a lot of green browse.

I tell you what some of this QDMA ideology is kinda like when its applied to most real world situations in Alabama……..Its like if I went down here to Hurtsboro and leased a few hundred acres where I shot me about 5 or 6 does and a couple of good bucks and then preached about how I’ve seen “balancing the herd” work like a charm!......The reality would be that all I did was go into a good area, shoot some deer, and call it “managing”…..What was done didn’t really have anything to do with what was seen but we like to convince ourselves otherwise…… What was seen had far more to do with what’s happening on the thousands of acres around that smaller parcel.

There’s a lot of folks out there that are just shooting deer and calling it successful management when the reality of what is being seen is hinging far more on what’s occurring around them…..My advice is take into consideration what everyone else is doing and let that be just as important as what you yourself are…….. Just about any place where I have a few hundred acres or less, I’m stacking the does in there and cherry picking bucks off of them while letting cars, coyotes, and other hunters “manage” the herd. That doesn’t mean I’d never shoot one for meat or just for someone to have fun….but I’m not going in and shooting does for the sake of management. You’ll never manage the deer herd that exists on a much bigger scale around you through a few hundred acre property…..you’ll only stand to decrease the quality of the hunting on that particular parcel.

That’s just my skrategy though…..YMMV

Is this BS still going???

I hope you know I wouldn’t argue for arguments sake. I guess the point I’m trying to make is it’s equally irresponsible for either one of us to throw blanket statements out there not knowing all the details. You have a picture of deer in a field and a guy who wants to kill a few does. You said he’s not going into improve his hunting by shooting a couple of does. I didn’t even think that was in question, yet that’s where you went with it. It’s certainly not going to harm anything. Other than saying that I wouldn’t make a harvest recommendation based off a picture alone. I made the recommendations to Backwoods Cowboy based off his objectives and the habitat condition I saw on site. If bamaeyedoc wanted a consult I’d do the same for him. Recommendations would be made considering three things, being, objectives, habitat condition and restraints or limiting factors from adjoining properties.
Im going to assume here that bamaeyedoc don’t have neighbors shooting a lot of does. Could be wrong. And I’m the last person to apply generic formulas from a textbook. I’m actually well outside that box.

Ok......

Oh but I would!!!

Damn straight

I’d even argue with my self. I’m against projecting but I’m gonna project

QDMA Never advocated to kill every doe you see

Quality Deer Management Association is NOT TDM and it was often time intertwined for those that didn’t understand the idea.

They did advocate for the hunting group to set goals then establish a plan
They did advocate for letting 1.5 yr old bucks walk and get another year on them
Many setup 3.5 yr old as a killable deer realize most hunters would never agree to go older


Age and nutrition are the foundation. Genetics are irrelevant as no way to change a free herds.

Basically from a Fisheries and Wildlife perspective in AL you just make it up. Whatever it is... you just make it up as you go. One guy has too many does the next-door neighbor needs to kill off his. You just make it up. That's been going on with "studies" and this crap for decades and decades. You are dealing with a bunch of BS job justification and people who want to play around outside all day and demand that you accept that what they doing is important. The only important people at the DCNR for most of us.... are the ones wearing a gun on their hip. The rest are just a waste of funding.

If you have a lot of deer but your buck/doe ratio is let's say = 1/10 1 Buck 10 Does.

WHO SHOT THE BUCKS? That's your dam problem. 100% of the time.

Blast the does... have less deer next year.

This is actually that simple. Unfortunately - people think too much. Moron reads a text book written by another moron about a study some bucktoothed dumbass kids at Awebren participated in and now we are all stupid because of it.

All you have to do is look at your situation and use your ability to formulate your own opinion which quite frankly people simply don't want to do. They want to be told what to do because they assume they aren't smart enough to figure out something this basic. Wrong.

If your neighbors are blasting all the small bucks you have 2 options: 1) You have to stop shooting them 2) Move somewhere else. That's all you can do in an environment this liberal where there is effectively zero enforcement.

Back when the QDMA got started they preached a 1:2 ratio . Wellllll at the time there was one way to do it ,,,, slaughter does.. then is when they needed to limited buck harvest not wait 20 damn years and then do it .

All the places I hunted back then the bucks look healthy at the end of season and had does out the ass. Before QDMA got started you heard the saying from older guys ,,,,, more does more bucks .

IMO ,,,,,how they pushed QDMA is why we are where we are . To many does was never a problem in most places the problem was they needed more bucks . Things should've been different back then and over the years . But money and a few with a little pull got in the way

What’s the replacement rates. I rarely see anything on that. QDMA had charts (CNC) to show how long it takes to replace mature bucks by age.

I’d really like to see that

Ok, let me get my part straight. Before matt even looked at my land he asked me what my objective was. I told him in this order;

1 I want as many deer as my property could hold and still be healthy.
2 I wanted to improve my age class of bucks to have as many 5-6 year Olds as possible.

Every improvement matt gave me was toward those goals. He walked all over my property and showed me how to tell if my land was over populated. This was MY goal and he help a bunch. What he said made sense and he showed me how to tell. Not just take my word. We both agrèd my property could hold a significant amount more deer.

The reason I called him, and I really didn't want to post this on the internet, was because in my opinion I have alot of deer. I have several people come to my place and tell me I NEED to start shooting does. It's not uncommon to see 25-35 deer in my pastures. I didn't know! I was very satisfied with the explanations matt gave me and am working toward implementing every suggestions he made. My comment to Bama eyedoc was to try to share the info I had with him. Which is just because you see a bunch of does, doesn't mean you NEED to shoot them. I know where he hunts and I know his neighbors very well.
I really don't care if someone wants to shoot does. If you want to shoot them shoot them. But there is a difference between want and need. I really don't care if you are allowed to feed corn, or use cameras or not. I really don't care what my neighbors do or how long the season is, as I cannot control any of this. I will worry about my place and what I can control. I will say I only have about 350 acres and the difference I've made by implementing these ideas is enough for my neighbor to start doing the same . He has about 350 acres also. If the question is how do we help the STATE manage the deer herd, it is my opinion that the season is too long. Way too many deer being killed and the EASIEST way to correct it is to shorten the season. We cannot simply continue to be allowed to kill 180 deer a year legally. Just my .02

Dang good post right here 👍🏾

I think we can give up on a shortened season, even in areas it’s not needed. So I’ve been told anyway. Conserving the resource for the benefit of populations and hunters don’t matter. Keeping certain ppl happy matters more apparently.

Nah, it’s about money