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Age vs Score Based Harvesting
#4096970
03/07/24 12:09 PM
03/07/24 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,177 Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,177
Awbarn, AL
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This isnt meant to be about the QDMA……its just a comparison of two different harvest methods.
I think the age based system that has been engrained in our hunting community hasn’t really been that great for promoting proper age structure in our herd. I think we would have been for better off if everyone would have stuck to score or “big bucks” as being how hunters defined a trophy….. like it was back in the day before QDM redefined it. Everyone was fine with it until they were taught to believe differently.
The result has been that even the most strict management we have these days shoots any buck 4 years old or older…..which in most cases from what I’ve seen, results in a bunch of 3 year olds getting killed as well. You don’t really end up with any kind of true age structure…..You mostly just shift the kill a little bit from 2 year olds to 3 year olds or something of that nature.
We would have better age structure if all of these same folks that are shooting for age were shooting for score……100% of the bucks in the herd have the potential to reach 4 years old……there’s a only a portion of them that have the potential to reach 115 or 120…..125…..etc…..If you’re shooting for score then you’re letting a lot of bucks walk and get older……not so with age based harvesting. On a state level, everyone shooting bucks by an age based system is just ensuring that few will make it past 3-4 to have any kind of real age structure…….From the standpoint of age structure we’d be better off with state full of a bunch of 5,6,7, 8 year old “culls” versus the way we have it now.
Last edited by CNC; 03/07/24 12:11 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: FreeStateHunter]
#4097019
03/07/24 01:42 PM
03/07/24 01:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,257 USA
marshmud991
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,257
USA
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I usually judge mine by how many spots they have. The more the better Yep!! Axis is way better then whitetail anyway.
It's hard to kiss the lips at night that chews your a$$ all day long.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097121
03/07/24 04:39 PM
03/07/24 04:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 23,383 blount county alabama
jwalker77
Pumpkin
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Pumpkin
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 23,383
blount county alabama
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I generally shoot the unlucky sonofa gun that steps out when my finger goes to itching. Sometimes ihave restraint. Sometimes the bloodlust is more than i can handle. No desire whatsoever to shoot a doe though, that just dont do it for me.
Last edited by jwalker77; 03/07/24 04:40 PM.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097134
03/07/24 05:12 PM
03/07/24 05:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,715 alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,715
alabama
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antler size is a stupid way to age bucks.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097138
03/07/24 05:22 PM
03/07/24 05:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,536 B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,536
B'ham
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The short answer is all you can do is have antler point limits.
Nobody on here can tell the difference between a 4 year old and a 2.5 year old. I mean C'mon Man. Being serious. They can't.
You say now Goat... you can't make a statement like that. BS I can't. Ever been to the deer processor during hunting season? I have. Kid hunting with me has the biggest deer in there dead or ready to pick up....
TRUTH.
1/2 people here can't shoot either.... that's another train car load of dumbassery we can discuss elsewhere.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097144
03/07/24 05:26 PM
03/07/24 05:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,084
abolt300
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,084
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I dont think that there is anything wrong with age based harvesting. Once bucks get to be 4 yrs old and beyond, they become fairly hard to kill during legal shooting hours. Rare is the situation where you can overharvest fully mature bucks or shoot out an entire age class of mature bucks. More die from old age, injury and sickness than hunter's weapons once they get past 4. At least in Alabama.
I also dont think that there is anything at all wrong with harvesting bucks from all age classes in a heavily managed environment and if it is done in moderation. One where you know what you have and what and how many from each age class are actually being harvested and how many you are carrying forward in each age class.
I'm 100% against harvesting by score. Harvesting by score leads to high grading and removing your best genetics from your herd at ages 2 and 3 when they are producing some very good headgear for their age but still young, dumb and easily killable and haven't gotten "mature smart" yet. It's exceptionally easy to overharvest the younger age classes of 1-3 yr old bucks. They are very visible and very easy to kill and that's why very few bucks make it into the older age classes in AL. Goes back to that lack of trigger restraint and the "might as well kill that pretty rack deer because if I dont kill that rack buck, my neighbor will, plus I can brag to my buddies that I killed an 8 pt last weekend" that we discuss so often on here.
Last edited by abolt300; 03/07/24 05:30 PM.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: BhamFred]
#4097182
03/07/24 06:20 PM
03/07/24 06:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,045 pensacola,fl. usa
billrv
6 point
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6 point
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,045
pensacola,fl. usa
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antler size is a stupid way to age bucks. This and if you can't tell the difference in a 2.5yo and 4.5yo buck you will never maximize your potential
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097189
03/07/24 06:25 PM
03/07/24 06:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,626 Right behind you
Mbrock
Fancy
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Fancy
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,626
Right behind you
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How you manage harvest is entirely dependent on objectives. There’s no wrong way, unless it’s not objective based, then there’s lots of wrong ways.
For most applications with multiple members a minimum beam or inside spread limit is likely the best way.
Or, you can decide not to harvest more than 20-30% of each age class, in all age classes, ensuring recruitment across the board.
In trophy management, which is rarely practiced, it takes an age based approach AND selective harvest of certain bucks in younger age classes, to work like it should. Most folks are not agreeable to what this takes and either give up or never commit from the beginning.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: Goatkiller]
#4097192
03/07/24 06:27 PM
03/07/24 06:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,019 Mobile, AL
Pwyse
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,019
Mobile, AL
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The short answer is all you can do is have antler point limits.
Nobody on here can tell the difference between a 4 year old and a 2.5 year old. I mean C'mon Man. Being serious. They can't.
You say now Goat... you can't make a statement like that. BS I can't. Ever been to the deer processor during hunting season? I have. Kid hunting with me has the biggest deer in there dead or ready to pick up....
TRUTH.
1/2 people here can't shoot either.... that's another train car load of dumbassery we can discuss elsewhere. Our guys can. It’s really not THAT hard. Some will make mistakes but most can tell the difference. Every once in awhile a 3 year old will die but it does cut out ALL 2 year olds. Some bucks we don’t have a history with we think are younger than they are though. Killed a few we thought to be 4 but the cementum aging had them older.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: Mbrock]
#4097194
03/07/24 06:28 PM
03/07/24 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,019 Mobile, AL
Pwyse
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,019
Mobile, AL
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How you manage harvest is entirely dependent on objectives. There’s no wrong way, unless it’s not objective based, then there’s lots of wrong ways.
For most applications with multiple members a minimum beam or inside spread limit is likely the best way.
Or, you can decide not to harvest more than 20-30% of each age class, in all age classes, ensuring recruitment across the board.
In trophy management, which is rarely practiced, it takes an age based approach AND selective harvest of certain bucks in younger age classes, to work like it should. Most folks are not agreeable to what this takes and either give up or never commit from the beginning. Just curious, what young bucks do you select and why?
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: Pwyse]
#4097200
03/07/24 06:37 PM
03/07/24 06:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,626 Right behind you
Mbrock
Fancy
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Fancy
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,626
Right behind you
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How you manage harvest is entirely dependent on objectives. There’s no wrong way, unless it’s not objective based, then there’s lots of wrong ways.
For most applications with multiple members a minimum beam or inside spread limit is likely the best way.
Or, you can decide not to harvest more than 20-30% of each age class, in all age classes, ensuring recruitment across the board.
In trophy management, which is rarely practiced, it takes an age based approach AND selective harvest of certain bucks in younger age classes, to work like it should. Most folks are not agreeable to what this takes and either give up or never commit from the beginning. Just curious, what young bucks do you select and why? This method really works best on areas with limited ingress and egress. It could be islands, geographically isolated properties, LARGE free range properties and enclosures. If you’re trying to get bucks to the upper age classes, like 6-8 years old, then you simply can’t allow all of them to get there without an extraordinary amount of social stress and competition. Usually selecting deer at younger age classes in the lower 1/2 of antler development is what is done. It removes mouths, competition, stress and allows deer in the upper percentile from each age class to thrive. Most folks will not successfully do this because they can’t buy in fully and it takes commitment. It’s pretty common in fenced properties, but works amazingly well on large cooperatives too.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097222
03/07/24 07:04 PM
03/07/24 07:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,177 Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,177
Awbarn, AL
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Some of the best clubs I know of with the best hunting just shoot it if they want to mount it…….
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097281
03/07/24 08:12 PM
03/07/24 08:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 11,838 Earth
TDog93
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 11,838
Earth
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What abolt said - if he gets to 5 - he ain't gonna b lining up to die - lucky if you kill him
I hav killed some old ones - but some got away. Had one on ckarke i finally did not see this year - would hav been 9-10. Had a 7 in camden - will be 8 next year if he made it
For my objectives - 4 plus is way to go and i leaning heavy to 5 - max potential starts. Had 2 stud 4 year olds n clarke - one of em i just spotted late this year - showed up lot last year. He would hav been hard not to shoot. The other i passed - if he would hav not lost long brow or broke a tine - been hard to pass him too!! Next year i would hav watched them both for 3 years - and next year at 5 - they likely mounters - if the neighbors dont get em under a street light!! 🤣🤣🤣
Got to remember - they dont wear name tags 😀
Hunt the wind - leave it better than you found it - love your neighbor as you love your self We need prayer for our country now more than ever
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: CNC]
#4097331
03/07/24 09:04 PM
03/07/24 09:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,177 Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 23,177
Awbarn, AL
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Some of the best clubs I know of with the best hunting just shoot it if they want to mount it……. I think I'd add 125" plus or anything you want to mount.......None of this "he needed shooting" kinda stuff.....
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: Mbrock]
#4097380
03/07/24 09:49 PM
03/07/24 09:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,019 Mobile, AL
Pwyse
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,019
Mobile, AL
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How you manage harvest is entirely dependent on objectives. There’s no wrong way, unless it’s not objective based, then there’s lots of wrong ways.
For most applications with multiple members a minimum beam or inside spread limit is likely the best way.
Or, you can decide not to harvest more than 20-30% of each age class, in all age classes, ensuring recruitment across the board.
In trophy management, which is rarely practiced, it takes an age based approach AND selective harvest of certain bucks in younger age classes, to work like it should. Most folks are not agreeable to what this takes and either give up or never commit from the beginning. Just curious, what young bucks do you select and why? This method really works best on areas with limited ingress and egress. It could be islands, geographically isolated properties, LARGE free range properties and enclosures. If you’re trying to get bucks to the upper age classes, like 6-8 years old, then you simply can’t allow all of them to get there without an extraordinary amount of social stress and competition. Usually selecting deer at younger age classes in the lower 1/2 of antler development is what is done. It removes mouths, competition, stress and allows deer in the upper percentile from each age class to thrive. Most folks will not successfully do this because they can’t buy in fully and it takes commitment. It’s pretty common in fenced properties, but works amazingly well on large cooperatives too. That makes sense.
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Re: Age vs Score Based Harvesting
[Re: ronfromramer]
#4097680
03/08/24 11:18 AM
03/08/24 11:18 AM
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,626 Right behind you
Mbrock
Fancy
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Fancy
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,626
Right behind you
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Using antler size/score can result in high grading. You can wind up killing the bucks with superior genes at a young age. We used to go by 8 pts or better and outside the ears. I killed a perfect 10 pt, great mass, long g2s and g3s, scored mid to upper 120's. Turned out he was a 140 lb 2 yr old. No doubt in my mind he could have topped 150 in a couple of years if he survived. A big if, but I guaranteed he wouldn't reach maturity when I pulled the trigger on him. That completely changed my way of thinking 😉
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