Well Carter, you have finally convinced me! I now understand what caused the turkey decline - it was YOU!!! You killed one Dominant Gobbler too many at precisely the wrong time and it started an Unstoppable Cascade that wiped out most of the turkeys in north Alabama and is still going through the entire southeast! That's what uncontrolled hunting can do, and you seem to understand that this is all your fault.

The next question, what to do about it? First, you have obviously gotta atone for yourself by never hunting again. But that's not enough, considering what you have done. You need to be thinking about Reparations as well. With apologies to George Costanza, we here at PCP University have created The Turkey Fund. Might I suggest a generous contribution to it? We will use the money to create better habitat for the wild turkey, and maybe send our Chancellor on a few fact finding trips to other states in the Spring. But we promise that the money will all go to turkeys in some way.

We want to prove your idea that gobblers are not just sperm donors. We think that they must sit on the eggs and help with the rearing of the young. We don't think turkeys could prosper the way they do if all of them grew up in single parent homes. Let us prove this for you! It's the least you can do.

I'd like to understand why some of you guys have a hard time understanding that if hens aren't successfully hatching and raising a clutch the population cannot increase

It's really simple guys, the population is not going to increase if a large percentage of hens cannot successfully hatch and raise their clutch. Nearly all the research has pointed to this as a huge problem. It has nothing to do with hunters killing to many gobblers. I do think the season timing in regard to South Bama sucks and we absolutely have no reason to be farting around in the woods in May!! Bumping hens off nest in my opinion has more of a negative impact than killing the gobblers.

How many would agree if a majority of the hens in the population could successfully hatch and raise their clutch to be adults, the population would increase? In my simple mind, I think if hens raise more poults to adults then those turkeys will raise turkeys and continue so on and so forth until they reach carrying capacity. It's really not rocket science in my opinion, mange the habitat for better brood rearing, and manage predators as aggressively as possible. That should lead to more turkeys based on my personal experience.

What we have is a state wildlife agency that is run by a group of people that are politicly motivated and do as they wish with little regard to wildlife management. We have timber companies that own a large percentage of the states timber/recreational land that absolutely refuses to manage the habitat due to cost and liability issues. Also, we as a society have become lazy and that includes a lot of hunters! Social media is full of people wanting the state to fix the population and limit hunter rights. Many fail to realize private landowners that manage their habitat is the backbone of producing game. The state is hell bent on restricting the rights of landowners/hunters therefore reducing the incentive to manage their property for increased populations. In my opinion the toothpaste is out of the tube and until a lot of changes take place it's not going back in! Those that want more game will do everything in their ability to produce more and those that want to state to fix it will continue to do nothing and complain about it.

Amen. I will say this, you can burn all you want but until you work on trapping predators aggressively it's not gonna help enough.

Too bad habitat management and trapping ain’t always the sole answer. I know of several places that do that and have declining numbers. On the flip side, I know of different properties that seem to do habitat management to run turkeys off and no trapping, yet still have great numbers of birds. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I can actually get on board with the idea that disturbing hens on nests could have an adverse outcome for the turkey population. Seems much more plausible than the dominant gobbler story. The solution would be an earlier season ending a week or so after hens go to nest.

I'd like to understand why some of you guys have a hard time understanding that if hens aren't successfully hatching and raising a clutch the population cannot increase

It's really simple guys, the population is not going to increase if a large percentage of hens cannot successfully hatch and raise their clutch. Nearly all the research has pointed to this as a huge problem. It has nothing to do with hunters killing to many gobblers. I do think the season timing in regard to South Bama sucks and we absolutely have no reason to be farting around in the woods in May!! Bumping hens off nest in my opinion has more of a negative impact than killing the gobblers.

How many would agree if a majority of the hens in the population could successfully hatch and raise their clutch to be adults, the population would increase? In my simple mind, I think if hens raise more poults to adults then those turkeys will raise turkeys and continue so on and so forth until they reach carrying capacity. It's really not rocket science in my opinion, mange the habitat for better brood rearing, and manage predators as aggressively as possible. That should lead to more turkeys based on my personal experience.

I'm also glad to see you finally admit that you were a plant here regarding the buck limit. I was one of the very few who was against your idea of a buck limit, and we debated it many times. I had no interest in shooting more than 3 bucks, but I could see that such a thing was going to drastically change the hunting experience in Alabama. Prior to the buck limit, we had the best game laws in the nation. The state followed the law and set seasons and limits that protected the species and left management up to the landowner or lease holder. I knew that a buck limit would lead to a dcnr that would try to control every aspect of the hunting experience, and it has.

I was satisfied with the status quo, but I said that if we just had to do SOMETHING, then an AR would be much better. That wouldn't have required any paperwork for hunters, and we already had the Barbour county experience that proved an AR would protect yearling bucks. They ignored the evidence and passed a buck limit instead, because it was never about biology; it was always about control.

You say that you believe things are better now under this system. I disagree.

Well Carter, you have finally convinced me! I now understand what caused the turkey decline - it was YOU!!! You killed one Dominant Gobbler too many at precisely the wrong time and it started an Unstoppable Cascade that wiped out most of the turkeys in north Alabama and is still going through the entire southeast! That's what uncontrolled hunting can do, and you seem to understand that this is all your fault.

The next question, what to do about it? First, you have obviously gotta atone for yourself by never hunting again. But that's not enough, considering what you have done. You need to be thinking about Reparations as well. With apologies to George Costanza, we here at PCP University have created The Turkey Fund. Might I suggest a generous contribution to it? We will use the money to create better habitat for the wild turkey, and maybe send our Chancellor on a few fact finding trips to other states in the Spring. But we promise that the money will all go to turkeys in some way.

We want to prove your idea that gobblers are not just sperm donors. We think that they must sit on the eggs and help with the rearing of the young. We don't think turkeys could prosper the way they do if all of them grew up in single parent homes. Let us prove this for you! It's the least you can do.

I could get on board with this.

Personal experience. Hen was nesting behind a buddies house and got accidentally bump off the nest a few times by him. She disappeared, leaving 10-12 eggs. She either abandoned the nest or was predated. We don’t know, other than she disappeared.

Brad I don’t know what those properties you speak of issues are, but it boils down to my first statement. The hens on those properties are not successfully hatching and raising their clutch for whatever reason. Until that starts happening there will not be a population increase. I do agree habitat and predator management is not the only two answers, but they sure do complement each other nicely when put in place to give the wild turkey a fighting chance. In my personal experience a little effort has made a difference for me. I do not ever complain the population as it’s a none issue for me. My complaint is having a state agency adjusting the hunting season based off personal agendas rather than proven science!!

I would guess there may be a small amount of random encounters from hunters that cause a complete nest abandonment but I’d bet it doesn’t compare to coyotes. Coyotes are very likely actively pursuing and seeking out nested hens 24/7…….Their nose running on nighttime air is damn near like a radar scanner. Its amazing that any hens at all are able to go a whole month on the ground without being pursued by one during that period…..

I would have to think that a lot of it revolves around how many coyotes are actually successful at ever killing a hen off the nest…..That positive reward to the individual coyote is going to stimulate a pursuit behavior which is going to result in a lot of flushing…….You would think that individual coyotes stand a greater chance of catching that ONE hen in areas where turkey populations are higher. Therefore, the higher the turkey population gets, the more likely that coyotes are going to start actively targeting them…..If something is learning and increasing its impact then my money is on the coyotes…..their pretty dang slick at adapting……

So you’re saying coyotes are trained up to seek out nesting hens. Hmm I’d alway hear they were opportunistic and traveled corridors aka roads to find their food. Rabbits and rats amongst the most sought out. Considering hens may nest along these edges I’m sure yotes happen upon ground nesting birds. I doubt they pass up a nested hen though. Also killed numerous coyotes coming into my calling and a gobbling bird.

Gotta map the coyotes use to seek out and destroy these nesting hens?

A chart maybe?

Alright history then……here’s my assessment of it…..

Once upon time, circa 1970’s, the conditions were just right to restock turkeys……There were no coyotes, people were actively trapping racoons and shooting avian predators……These ideal conditions allowed for rapid growth…..Also at this time there were few turkey hunters so the number of males being shot was fairly moderate which allowed there to be a complete age structure pyramid in place…..Not only was turkey population growth flourishing but there was a lot of gobblers per hunter……

Then, around the late 80’s and early 90’s coyotes began to roll in and over the course of the next decade or more, expand and fill in the landscape…..heavily impacting nesting outside of prime locations and the unchecked growth that was occurring….On top of this fur markets dried up and not only did coon trapping decrease but we’ve since started supplementally feeding their populations…..Along with this raptor populations have continued to climb.

So now these ideal conditions that we started with no longer exist and the populations have constraints put on them…..We’re beginning to decrease to the population levels that those limits have put on us…..In the process of this happening, turkey hunting has become more and more popular which has put more hunters in the woods killing more turkeys…..With the turkey population decreasing and the hunter population increasing…..your gobbler to hunter ratio has changed dramatically from what it was back in the good old days. This complete age structure pyramid has probably been whacked in half and you just don’t have the same primo hunting experience as it used to be.

Now these days, I think limiting the number of gobblers that hunters kill and the number of days they have to hunt them is what the state sees as their only real option to “do something”……Which means that they need to persuade the general hunting public that they should agree with that….So therefore you have some folks who’s only problem or solution to any discussion is going to ALWAYS revolve around how the hunter is “potentially” the problem and limiting the hunter is the solution……..even though hunters are likely one of the smallest holes in the bucket and not the limiting factor preventing growth……

I think the game plan is not to actually grow the turkey population but rather just let people shoot less gobblers so that more make it and give the perception that more have been created……More haven’t really been created, less have just been allowed to be shot. I suppose that this is A solution to improving the hunting experience…….but the problem is that in order to really make any change in this manner, you’re going to have to really reduce the bag limits or season dates to create change……The total number of people killing one turkey matters a lot more right now than the number who are killing four. The real limiting factor to population growth continues to be the predation and disruption on the nesting/brooding process.

I was one of the very few who was against your idea of a buck limit, and we debated it many times. I had no interest in shooting more than 3 bucks, but I could see that such a thing was going to drastically change the hunting experience in Alabama. Prior to the buck limit, we had the best game laws in the nation. The state followed the law and set seasons and limits that protected the species and left management up to the landowner or lease holder. I knew that a buck limit would lead to a dcnr that would try to control every aspect of the hunting experience, and it has.

I was satisfied with the status quo, but I said that if we just had to do SOMETHING, then an AR would be much better. That wouldn't have required any paperwork for hunters, and we already had the Barbour county experience that proved an AR would protect yearling bucks. They ignored the evidence and passed a buck limit instead, because it was never about biology; it was always about control.

You say that you believe things are better now under this system. I disagree.

Watch the 25-35 minute mark and get back to me. Very interesting stuff yet not really surprising in the grand scheme of things.
Basically the ester oil in the preening oils change compositionally to help hide ground nesting birds that are laying and or nesting. Making it very difficult for canines to find the bird. They used trained dogs and they could not find nesting birds with that specific preening oil composition