You are doing a lot of speculation and throwing stuff at the walls, hoping it sticks. The Northern part of your green area, breeding does not coincide with the South area ( Jones Farm). It coincides more with central Jackson. Don't forget there was two releases on Skyline WMA , I think both before the Jones Farm release. That area is / was most likely influenced by deer released on Skyline. MOF , The lower PRV / Jones Farm area peak breeding dates (Mid Jan) seem to have expanded less than those released in other parts of the county and is a smaller "pocket" , not larger than it's neighbors .

I get that it isnt going to be exact 2dogs…..I’m throwing out a representation of the general idea of what it should look like…..Now you need to take the map and use local observations to tweak where those lines actually fall out and an idea of which stockings may be dominating an area, etc……The fetal data helps with that as well….

I’m not doing as much speculation as you may think…..“hoping things stick”…..I have my own area that I have become really familiar with……These concepts don’t change from one area to the next…..it’s only a different combination of the variables……which deer you got and which you didn’t, how they expanded, etc

Now here’s where it really gets interesting…….In theory all of these releases that are out of synch with the original natural timing……those ruts should move back toward those original dates over time…….Have those Clarke Co deer shifted their rut back a week??....Despite popular belief it possible for the rut to change…..That’s how nature allows the species to adapt to change over time…..It isnt going to happen from the course of one year to the next though but over time….. Those Clarke Co deer should have a Jan 19 to Feb 6 rut window with a Jan 26-30 peak……

I think our human hands choosing the winners and losers is somehow keeping that natural change from happening…..I haven’t figured all of that out yet……The natural smooth progression you see in rut dates going from south to north in the southwest corner that go from late Jan Clarke Co to Dec in Pickens at the root should be a result of the differences in the spring green up and the progression of the vegetative state…..

That timing eventually either lines up with a time period of optimal nutrition for the mama doe and/or it lines up with an optimal vegetative state for fawn drop/survival and that gives you the optimal peak breeding times…..Its a matter of these deer having an advantage over those deer due to an environmental factor…..Somehow we hunters are overriding that selection process through the randomness of which ones we kill…..If we were to completely quit killing does then coyotes would drive the choosing process and that should drive a shift back to the optimal natural rut time…..That may be what’s happening in some areas over time but really slowly…..I don’t know….like I said, its something interesting to ponder over……

Ok , I guess don't get where you're headed . I do know in the grand scheme of Jackson Co. , that the dominate influence on Central ( north of the river) , Skyline and upper PRV you shouldn't discount the releases on Skyline . I'll bet $ , they are the dominate genes in those areas.

Correct…….Here’s the restocking map again…… http://www.aldeer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=521982

The three triangle shaped releases were all from Marengo Co including the Jones farm…..They likely dominate that part of the county just like you’re saying……The circle release in the northern part of the state was from Clarke Co and should have a late January date…..This is where you kinda got to use your local knowledge of stuff along with any fetal data from that area to figure out what happened to those late Jan does and how much influence they may have today……It could be none....heck they could have all died.......I don’t think any of the fetal data came from that area though……Also what’s missing from this restocking map should be another symbol by the river indicating a native deer stocking source

Look a few comments down on the old thread with the restocking map at troubledouble’s comment…..That's just a little more data to take into consideration if true....It being a buck it could have been a long ways away from any actual Clarke Co doe population.....It does kinda let you know that some of them lived and reproduced though.....

The coves between Stevenson and Bridgeport where I live are now to Christmas. I’m not talking young bucks pushing does but older bucks actually breeding. 21-26 every year bucks you never catch in daylight walking around all day looking. We typically here at house see fawns first 10 days July. I think the north end of sand mtn is about the same.

I would think that’s likely gonna be the native deer then that pushed up off the river……At some point they are going to merge with those restockings from south Alabama……If I had to guess I would imagine the populations grew and expanded via the creeks first……Somewhere up in there to the north of that area should be some Clarke Co does……They may be completely intermingled with the Marengo doe population though and you not have any kind of pure Clarke Co rut up there……you just may have those reports of people still seeing a doe getting chased here and there all the way through early Feb…..There's gonna be somewhere that these populations overlap each other that a guy may see chasing from mid Dec through early Feb

Something to keep in mind is that its our doe harvesting that keeps all of these areas stable…..If we keep the doe populations down to a level where there’s no competition for resources then doe groups just keep living where they were born for the most part……..On the other hand you could completely quit shooting does around the river and up in the coves ridgestalker mentioned while skyline whacked away at their does and have the Dec rut slowly push north and west……Its still a fluid situation even today……

First off , let this sink in, there weren't very many native deer along the river . It was rare to see one and most folks didn't even think they existed. You are giving them too much credit.

Earlier , up stream , you had doubts they went North of 72 , now you think they're way up in those coves , North of the river within a mile or two of the TN line? I bid Ridgestalker's dates are from TN influence . Don't forget the TN deer and it's common knowledge up here there are pockets up that way that breed when their Northern cousins do.

OK let's look at it this way . Here's what we know. Deer were released at least twice at Skyline , Jones Farm and North Sand Mt. Those came from I believe 3 different locations in LA . There were a few native deer in Central Jackson and then there were deer North of Bridgeport just across in TN. You ain't gonna figure this out easy as you think. Revert to the Rawhide method.

You're a hard feller to have a conversation with 2dogs…..Nobody is trying to bump chests……..

There didn’t have to be a bunch of native river deer left to build a population from…….We built populations all over from releases of a handful of deer here and there……There could have simply been 10-15 does and some bucks left in a swamp somewhere along the river and when they halted the hunting those deer could have easily started multiplying……which is likely what happened if Chis Cook acknowledged that native deer did indeed make it....You know river bottoms are pretty good places for deer to prolifically multiply and establish high densities.

This ^^^^^ is likely the reason why you still have a well-established Dec herd still today with its core area around the river…….When the native population started growing it probably grew rapidly and established a high density around the river before it started pushing outward up the creeks and into those hollers…….It could have pushed out well to the south of the river also……Depending on the timing of the releases that Sumter Co release around Flat Rock could have just gotten mixed in with the already forming river population…..It could be that those Sumpter releases ARE the river deer if they came from the extreme north end of Sumpter Co……I still don’t think you’d get the mid Dec action from those deer though……Mid Dec to Christmas is exactly what you would expect the native deer to have had……I bet a large portion of Jackson Co up through there is actually descendants of the native deer....more than folks realize

Not hard at all to have a conversation with , I believe we shouldn't omit facts that are very pertinent to the conversation. BTW, Chris Cook didn't mention native genes anywhere but Bellefonte area to me . In fact, IF the reason we have the densities and saturation we have is from a few native deer left in a swamp, it's mighty funny they waited till deer were released in various locations around them to begin multiplying. That would be an even more interesting hypothesis to prove.

Jackson Co is a mini version of the whole state , with 4 or more rut / peak breeding periods . I'd suspect there may not be another area it's size anywhere like it. I'd also suspect if some University or Grad student set out to study and get to the bottom of our deer herd and rut , in the end they'd find more questions than answers. We ain't gonna solve it here.

Deer were very slow to start on top of Sand Mt, South of the river . MOF that is the last, large area to get good huntable numbers in the county . There's good habitat and hiding places out there too. It's just happened the last 15-20 years and has always been a mystery to many around here why it took so long.

Mid Dec to Christmas breeding is the exception and not the norm for Jackson Co breeding. And far as I know is mostly up in Ridgestalker's stomping grounds. And once again, I believe stems from TN deer making a run for the border .

I've been hunting them and a student of them up here for 50+ years.

If Chris Cook said there were native deer left along the river then I’m assuming he’s correct and there indeed were some deer left to repopulate from……If that’s the case then why would the population of those native river deer remain low and only isolated to a small area around Belafonte while everything else expanded and filled in around it??......That doesn’t make sense for that to have happened……If there were deer left around the river like Chris Cook said then they most likely started repopulating the river bottom at the same time the restockings happened in Jackson Co and the state closed the deer season for that area……

I don't know, perhaps because the fact they were native and not relocated . The relocated deer were perhaps "programmed" to expand quicker . The native had all they needed, low numbers, food , cover and no reason to roam. And I can tell ya , they were hunted and kept very quiet about it. Commercial fishermen and others who lived on the river ate local venison when they wanted it.

I'll throw ya a bone, I teed it up above but I guess you missed it. The deer out on top of Sand Mt around Pisgah , Section and points East would IMO be more likely to be high % native as no stocking was done to the East of them . Stocking was to the North, West and South. Also remember , that area of the county was slow and the last area to fill in with good numbers. What cha think?

I still ain't buying PRV , Skyline and up in Ridgestalker's area is loaded with native genes. And you can't make me.

If I had to guess as to why some areas probably took a while for deer to expand into the areas south of the river is because does arent going to leave prime river bottom land and expand into lesser areas until the population level forces them to do so……and river bottom land typically has a high carrying capacity……Until that river bottom herd outgrows it social capacity then there isnt going to be much “expansion” outside of the river corridor…..Expansion would happen up and down the river first

Careful , taking into account some of your above post you're getting close to contradicting yourself there.

It would help if you'd been around here for 50 years or so , I don't think you understand the big picture of restocking in the early 60s , where deer were and weren't and where and when the entire county became saturated. I wouldn't even start to speculate on what went on in some LA counties restocking efforts.

I think that native population in Jackson Co probably occupies the river corridor and up into some of those hollers to the north like ridgstalker mentioned until it merges in with the south Alabama restockings at some point……Not sure yet how far it went to the south……coach seems to have those deer too now out on the mountain

Think about this aspect of it too that I already mentioned…..The river bottom land likely has a much higher carrying capacity than the mountain land to the north…..If we have a few native deer along the river and we release those deer at the restocking locations on the map and shut down hunting season and say go………When you start multiplying the number of deer that get produced from 20 to 40 to 80 to 160….320…..640….1280 and to BOOOM!!......That river bottom land is going to hold a lot more as this happens before they expand while the same number of deer in the mountains would probably be pushing across a much bigger area……Those mountains would probably fill in before many does left the river bottoms.