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Re: 308 or 300 blk
[Re: Mdees]
#4252190
12/26/24 09:02 AM
12/26/24 09:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
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Thanks for the input. Leaning on 308 sub and suppressed. Write ups suggest 300 blk out is more accurate but only good out to 150 yds which seems plenty but when talking with people who actually use them they stay less than 100 yds. 308 harder to find but can load if I need to.
300 bo is more accurate than a 308? Is that just in AR style rifles ? A 308 is one of the most inheretently accurate calibers there is. I don’t see how either of these can be objectively true. And the statement is a bit confusing. For starters, .300blk and .308Win/7.62x51 shoot the exact same bullets. They are both .308cal. The cartridges are optimized for different weapon designs and the 300blk is more niche, excelling in a short barreled AR platform, for example, while the .308win is optimized for a 18-20”+ rifle. But when you handicap your weapon to subsonic use then difference in ballistics is nullified. You won’t realize a performance edge pushing a 200gr .308 bullet at 1040fps out of an 18” .308win over pushing the same 200gr .308 at 1040fps out of a 9” .300blk barrel. I see where the confusion might be, I said caliber, should have said round or caterage. I know the 308 and 300bo are same bullets. I thought it was widely known the 308 Winchester is one of the most inheretently accurate rounds out there. They shoot well for me . Do short barreled 308 ARs not have a twist rate to compensate for length?
Last edited by 2Dogs; 12/26/24 09:20 AM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: 308 or 300 blk
[Re: pcola4]
#4252194
12/26/24 09:20 AM
12/26/24 09:20 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,795
B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,795
B'ham
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it is easy to get caught up in what this will do or what that will do.... none of them really do subsonic great. That's just a fact. The only way to retain the energy for any sort of reasonable distance is to shoot a heavy bullet. Accuracy is really not an issue as you won't be taking long shots. Or at least nowhere near as long as you think.
Do you need a super duper custom bullet to shoot pretty much 100 yards? No. Instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole just look at what DOES actually work at subsonic velocity. .45 Colt? 45-70? Those are easily loaded at subsonic velocity and the West was won killing buffalo with a black powder 45-70. It will kill the crap out of something with a subsonic load it was designed in that era.
If you were going to shoot a heavy bullet at subsonic velocity and wanted reliable expansion and performance what is designed for that already on the market. Answer = Pistol Bullets. The 45-70 has subsonic bullet options because of the popularity and ability to shoot cast bullets if you do it right.
What rifle round can you just shoot common heavy pistol bullets in? Answer = .450 Bushmaster.
I've tried about every combination and after 10 years or spending a lot of money chasing the holy grail of subsonic performance that's where I landed. You don't have to re-invent the wheel or fix something that isn't broke.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: 308 or 300 blk
[Re: Goatkiller]
#4252209
12/26/24 09:53 AM
12/26/24 09:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,086
Lower AL
k bush
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,086
Lower AL
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it is easy to get caught up in what this will do or what that will do.... none of them really do subsonic great. That's just a fact. The only way to retain the energy for any sort of reasonable distance is to shoot a heavy bullet. Accuracy is really not an issue as you won't be taking long shots. Or at least nowhere near as long as you think.
Do you need a super duper custom bullet to shoot pretty much 100 yards? No. Instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole just look at what DOES actually work at subsonic velocity. .45 Colt? 45-70? Those are easily loaded at subsonic velocity and the West was won killing buffalo with a black powder 45-70. It will kill the crap out of something with a subsonic load it was designed in that era.
If you were going to shoot a heavy bullet at subsonic velocity and wanted reliable expansion and performance what is designed for that already on the market. Answer = Pistol Bullets. The 45-70 has subsonic bullet options because of the popularity and ability to shoot cast bullets if you do it right.
What rifle round can you just shoot common heavy pistol bullets in? Answer = .450 Bushmaster.
I've tried about every combination and after 10 years or spending a lot of money chasing the holy grail of subsonic performance that's where I landed. You don't have to re-invent the wheel or fix something that isn't broke.
Plan on testing that hypothesis when .gov releases my Dead Air Primal. Hornady has designed the 338 ARC around subsonic use and I may build/buy an upper to play around with in that as well. Have you experimented with the lightweight pistol bullets in the 300 BO for really quiet "pest" control rounds ?
"Cull" is just another four letter word...
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Re: 308 or 300 blk
[Re: Mdees]
#4252294
12/26/24 12:29 PM
12/26/24 12:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
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2Dogs, they do. But all barrels will be optimal for certain grain weights of bullet. You can have certain ranges of bullet weight be unstable depending on twist rate and or velocity while others perform flawlessly. For instance, the most common .308win rifles tend to have a twist rate optimized for the 165-175gr bullets with 168gr being a perennial favorite. It may shoot these very accurately. But start pushing 110gr or 220gr pills through that same barrel and you may find a particular rifle is suddenly not accurate at all. So I think it’s unrealistic to say that .308 is inherently accurate. There are so many bullet types to chose from that may give results from excellent to piss poor, but looking at ballistics.
But here I’m looking specifically at the discussion of both 300blk and 308win as contenders for a subsonic role. It's highly doubtful any cartridge/round is accurate in a given rifle , with all weight bullets offered, especially as many as is offered in .308. You can find any number of articles by gun writers and on internet shooters sites about how inherently accurate the 308 Win is. Maybe I don't understand what inherently accurate means . Intrinsic accuracy is another term I see associated with the 308 Win.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: 308 or 300 blk
[Re: k bush]
#4252350
12/26/24 02:03 PM
12/26/24 02:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,795
B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,795
B'ham
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it is easy to get caught up in what this will do or what that will do.... none of them really do subsonic great. That's just a fact. The only way to retain the energy for any sort of reasonable distance is to shoot a heavy bullet. Accuracy is really not an issue as you won't be taking long shots. Or at least nowhere near as long as you think.
Do you need a super duper custom bullet to shoot pretty much 100 yards? No. Instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole just look at what DOES actually work at subsonic velocity. .45 Colt? 45-70? Those are easily loaded at subsonic velocity and the West was won killing buffalo with a black powder 45-70. It will kill the crap out of something with a subsonic load it was designed in that era.
If you were going to shoot a heavy bullet at subsonic velocity and wanted reliable expansion and performance what is designed for that already on the market. Answer = Pistol Bullets. The 45-70 has subsonic bullet options because of the popularity and ability to shoot cast bullets if you do it right.
What rifle round can you just shoot common heavy pistol bullets in? Answer = .450 Bushmaster.
I've tried about every combination and after 10 years or spending a lot of money chasing the holy grail of subsonic performance that's where I landed. You don't have to re-invent the wheel or fix something that isn't broke.
Plan on testing that hypothesis when .gov releases my Dead Air Primal. Hornady has designed the 338 ARC around subsonic use and I may build/buy an upper to play around with in that as well. Have you experimented with the lightweight pistol bullets in the 300 BO for really quiet "pest" control rounds ? Been a long-term project of mine for several years now. I loaded somecheap standard issue short jacket 30 caliber bullets and they did good for shooting varmits in the yard and such at low velocity. 45-70 shoots a .458 diameter bullet. Definitely a lot to work with there but cast needs to be coated as cast bullets don't mix with a suppressor. .450 Bushmaster shoots .452 diameter bullets. Pretty much all the pistol bullets give reliable sub-sonic performance. I will probably try the 338 ARC for fun but I think I already know the answer. I've found a bolt gun to be the best platform for any of this stuff. I'm currently shooting a Ruger American in 450 bushmaster and I can kill the t-total crap out of anything that strolls up to a feeder. I did all this to simply eliminate the hogs while also limiting the noise around where I'll be deer hunting. The only problem that I have come across is that bigger calibers are harder to keep quiet so getting .22LR noise levels is not acheivable really. Just too much gas to deal with. But still quiet enough to not ruin your hunt.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: 308 or 300 blk
[Re: pcola4]
#4252369
12/26/24 02:37 PM
12/26/24 02:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,086
Lower AL
k bush
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,086
Lower AL
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That's been my problem even with the bolt action 300 BO. I want it to be as quiet as my bolt action .22 LR with the Sparrow mounted on it.
What's the effective range on your Bushmaster.
"Cull" is just another four letter word...
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