I throw in a perspective…..I think doe management is gonna be a little more complex ……I’ll give you an example…..

I’m hearing from a lot of folks in some areas about population levels being way down from what they have traditionally been…..It has nothing to do with poor habitat either…This area is full of prime habitat......Its completely a function of hunters whacking and stacking over corn piles and harvest numbers increasing……Now you even have some of the bigger players seeing big drop offs in numbers…..Some are seeing the light of what’s occurring and only killed 4 does this year off of 4-5K acres.....Another 5K acre parcel that killed 60 last year said they were gonna cut way back and only kill a handful as well…… Meanwhile just up the road a guy has just bought him 600 acres and plans on taking out 20 does this year to.....and I quote......“help balance out the buck to doe ratio”……while still this other guy beside them sits on his back porch watching 6 corn piles and whacking bucks two at a time off of them…….You cant make this chit up.....

I’m just saying that sometimes the guys that are over here “managing” their herd as if it lives in a box and choosing a random number of does out of a hat to shoot seem oblivious to the bigger picture around them as if it has no relevance….. Somebody has to balance out all of that doe whacking when the woods get full of doe managers on a bunch of properties…… Some of the folks that think 10 or 20 is “a lot” just never seen it where there was 50 or 80 and they’re just shooting does because that’s what the biologist said you’re supposed to do….

Yes as stated a million times it’s important to have good neighbors and know what they are doing. Very important.

You obviously have NOT been following along. People.shooting deer have nothing to do with deer management! And all the bucks die on their own before they're five anyway! Good thing you don't train your dogs in March, apparently 60 percent of all bucks are laying out there dead on their own, talk about confused dog!

I have been hunting for a long time and have seen places that shot the hell out of a lot of does and other places that didn't. My impression is that if you have good habitat the deer will be there. If you shoot a bunch of does off of it, more will move in and take their place. Had a place in Union Springs years ago and you would not believe how many bucks we took off it every year and the next year it would be full of them again. I was always worried we were shooting it out but they kept coming back I assume off other properties with worse habitat. Not scientific but its what I have seen.

One day you are going to grow up and actually add something to a conversation. Go back to the sports forum and do that crap.

I think most places where stories like this occur are only able to do so though because there’s enough folks around them who arent shooting them like that to compensate for it…..You have big properties with low hunter densities propping up populations around them where folks shoot a bunch…….. Its fine until the number of folks whacking them at a high rate becomes too many then those other properties arent able to compensate for it in the same way any longer and things go down hill…..Especially if the big properties are still killing at the same rate too ……I think that’s pretty much what has happened in a short amount of time in some of these places…….Like death by a thousand cuts…..or maybe rather by 10,000 corn piles.....

Of the properties I know of that have been clubs or managed the last 15 years or so, they shot does before corn or they didn’t shoot does before corn. Corn didn’t change the fact that they shot does or didn’t. Not saying that is the norm, that’s just what I know of in my circle.

No No No No No. This is Alabama, quality bucks with good racks just are not possible in this state because the genetics are terrible and it is all pine trees, with proportionately very little big Ag. We dont need to let any bucks get age on them. It wont do any good. Gotta kill every spike you see (they are inferior bucks from the get go), and those 4 points need to be taken out too because they dont have brow tines (bad genetic trait), and that basket rack 8 needs to go too because even though he's only 2-3 yrs old, I'm gonna say he's 4 and his rack is not what it should be. Most of the hunters in Alabama are simply looking for any excuse they can find, to pull the trigger on a buck. Any buck and most especially any buck with a rack. That's why we dont need buck limits. We've got to be able to kill off all these 1-3 yr olds expressing these bad genetics.

It's as simple as Habitat, Habitat, Habitat and Age, Age, Age. With natural mortality within the buck population being as high as it is, like it or not, statewide, we are simply killing way too many bucks. In doing so, we are killing way too many young bucks to be able to maintain the buck age structure necessary to keep our deer herds in the "good shape" that Matt is referring to. And for the record, I completely agree with Matt, people would be amazed at what Alabama can produce in the way of bucks, with even just the slightest little bit of proper habitat management and trigger restraint.

You’re correct…..It probably did not change the number of does many of the bigger properties are killing……It changed the number being killed on the 5-50 acre type parcels around them and around the rest of the county where folks find a spot in a good county and “fill freezers”……Not labeling it as good or bad but just as the source of the change. You need some of the bigger folks who are just whacking does to meet a quota to back off and compensate for all the numbers that the smaller guys are now shooting…….

Something else that needs thrown into this mix to consider is that all of that quail hunting land is also likely helping to prop up one of the highest coyote densities in the whole state…….which effects far more properties than just the quail land…..That impact is likely felt for miles on EVERY parcel…….So therefore it may be that when the balance gets tipped too far toward killing, killing, killing…….then its not so easy for the overall population to rebound from that if the only places that are highly successful in fawn survival are just the best of the best…..and its not even to say that those properties see really high rates……maybe its just average

how did you come to that . point out where what i said that didn't line up with matt .


you can only argue a point so much . get bored i move on .

That’s what I’ve referred to before about the best conditions for genetic potential I’d read about. Didn’t know what it was called. It was in an article I’d read about where Alabama's next record would come from. It mentioned your neck of the woods because of soil composition, a growing population well below carrying capacity. It’s was something to do with competition between the bucks and the utilization, availability and quality of browse

I was kidding buddy. Matt said follow the science and your next post was “I’m out”. That’s all I was talking about.

no problem i was just wondering . lol

I interpreted Frankie’s comment as “I’m out” when it comes to talking genetics. 🤷🏼‍♂️

whats to talk about really ?

imo , they are the one thing in management you have verry little to no control over . you got what you got . you can help express it but thats it .


was a guy near me that raised deer , ever now and then one or some got loose . no way would shot one . now if it helped , maybe not . but it didnt hurt either . lol

I hear folks talk about seeing 30-40 deer in a sit. Never really seen more than 10 in my years of hunting. Folks in the areas I have hunted over the years like deer meat. When the only breeder buck is left trying to take care of most the does by the time the rut is over that animal has to try to recover. Coyotes may get it because it is run down. Theoretically most of your population will be fawns and does. Do the math. It would be great to be in a place to hunt were folks were interested in growing mature deer, but in a lot of areas any buck is a good one in most of Alabama. In Alabama unless you have a high fence or huge tracts what you do don't really matter that much if all your neighbors are not on board. Kind of like pissing in the wind.

Yes you are correct. You have to solve the neighbor problem if you want to have mature bucks. If they won’t get on board then you have to change your hunting ground.

I refuse to hunt a place where any buck is a good buck.

Folks wanting older bucks that hunt smaller spots have got to get of the thought ,,,, if I dont kill it guy next door will.


I got people hunting all around me (100ac) and bucks that I've seen has made it to 5 and 6 years old . Had i killed them they wouldn't have

If you have good habitat and shoot a bunch of does, I believe they will be replaced by does from surrounding properties. Deer flow to the best habitat. Had a place in Michigan that it was not uncommon to see 30 does per hunt and it got wiped out by EHD one summer. Dead deer everywhere but was contained to a 5 to 10 mile area. Saw very few deer the next year and by the third year was back to 30 does per sit. I believe it just took that long for the deer to flow back into that area. I think blasting a bunch of does might make you feel good but I don't believe you can shoot enough to change the herd ratio imo. I also believe some habitats are more attractive to does and will draw them no matter what. I have no habitat training just relating what I have seen.

Matt, what % of the yearling bucks are going to disburse? I was under the impression that essentially all of them do if the mother is still alive, but they will stay on the property if she is dead. Is that correct?

If it is, that's gotta be one of the most important factors to consider in trying to grow big bucks. If you don't kill any does, then 100% of your annual buck crop is gonna leave, no matter how good your habitat may be. And the only bucks you will have will be those from neighboring land, of which you have no control.

If that's the way it works, then you need to kill some does in order to keep some of your bucks. It illustrates why you can't use cattle management ideas with deer.