Respectfully, you cannot prove these assertions by using the Bible. If baptism was not needed in the time period when Paul preached, the account of Acts 19:1-5 would not exist. This passage very clearly claims there was a difference between John's baptism and Christ's baptism. Also, this same Paul that you claim didn't include baptism stated in Galatians 3:27-28 that both Jews & Gentiles had been baptized into Christ and become part of the body. Furthermore, this same Paul claimed in 1 Corinthians 1:14-16 that he had baptized Chrispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus. Finally, this same Paul wrote in Colossians 2:12 that people were "buried with Christ in baptism"... and the letter of Colossians was addressed to the church at Colossae... not just Jewish Christians who met there. As someone else mentioned above, Scripture is the authority... and we must correctly handle it (2 Timothy 2:15).

(1) No one I know who claims baptism is essential to salvation argues that salvation isn't due to God's grace. Ephesians 2:8 clearly asserts we're saved by grace... but by/through faith. Faith is trusting enough in God to obey His requirements. Noah, according to Genesis 6:8, was saved from the flood by grace... yet, Hebrews 11:7 says he saved his household by building the ark. Was he saved by grace? Absolutely. Did he have to obey God's terms in order to be saved? Without question.

(2) If you find that some were baptized in order to be saved and others were not, then there is not a standard that exists for all people to obey. 1 Peter 1:22 says we are "purified" when we obey the truth... and Romans 6:17 says we obeyed a form/standard of teaching. Notice the language of verses such as Mark 16:15-16 (belief + baptism = salvation), Acts 2:38 (repentance + baptism = salvation), Acts 22:16 (wash away your sins), and 1 Peter 3:21 (baptism saves us). When you combine these with the many examples found in the book of Acts, hard to argue against baptism being necessary.

(3) You claim that by utilizing baptism, people are not relying on God and thus relying upon people in order to be saved. Scripture plainly teaches God has CHOSEN (note this word "chosen") to save people through the preaching of the gospel... something which inherently depends upon people doing something (see Romans 10:14-15 and 1 Corinthians 1:21). The key in this entire discussion is not "how many ways could God save people". Rather, the key is "how did God choose to save people?" ?He chose for people to be saved by hearing and obeying the gospel... something involving people.

I agree with you... much of what you and I say will not change each other's views on the matter. I post, however, to make sure those who read this thread have a balanced view... and hope all who are interested in salvation will study with an open Bible and an open heart... realizing they will not be judged by people's opinions, but by God's revealed word. God bless.

I agree Bamarich. I should clarify though, for all those that may read this thread, that my choice not to dive to heavy into this subject isn't JUST due to a lack of time/space or because I know I won't change someone's mind. It is also because I don't want to put out tidbits of information or references and sway Simone's opinion without giving adequate scripture to back it up. Basically, I don't want to do more harm than good. I will clarify one thing that I think I have given the wrong impression of. I do think, no I know, we are commanded to be baptized. I just don't think it is a step of obtaining salvation. It's a commandment much like the other commandments. I know many people that disagree with this always reference Acts 2 but as I mentioned earlier there are just as many scriptures on being saved that doesn't mention it as well. Also, you usually run across the people that says "well, there may be other scriptures but it says it in Acts 2 so I'm going to do it or believe it that way". How many of those people have given away all their possessions as Jesus instructed the rich young ruler ? Probably not many. I know in that instance Jesus was pointing out where the rulers heart was in comparison to his belongings but the fact remains that it was still said when asked how to be saved that he should give away his belongings and follow Christ. You can't follow word for word in one scripture and then ignore another. Oh well, enough from me. For a guy that isn't going to get in to it too much, I sure have said a lot. . Y'all have a great day. God bless.

I would be glad to discuss each one of these a little later today when I have time to dive off into each one of them. Thanks for taking the time to dive in with us!

Almost 700 people have read this and could possibly be all the Bible they ever get. Let me challenge you as a reader to open the Bible and read the scriptures for yourself that are given for reference by each poster. While reading remember that the Bible is Gods word and not mans and see what you take from them.This word is what we all will be judged by in the last day.

That is one fine post my friend. Looking at any given Scripture or few Scriptures, without taking into account ALL of the rest of Scripture at the same time, will give you a headache. Been there and done that.

I'm late to the party it seems. Some great discussion so far.

I've been wondering where you were Straycat. I keep waiting for Lefthorn to jump in too.

One last point. Peter was asked the very question about being saved. And his reply was repent and be baptised. Now peter actually walked and talked to Jesus. So why even consider someones opinion over 2000 years later as to what he really meant. Peter knew exactly what he was saying when asked what we must do. Yes Acts 2:38 is referenced because it is plain and to the point. Yes there are other scriptures where it doesnt mention Baptism but the verses that do are very clear about it being required. In the entire Bible there is a recurring point and that is obedience. Some say baptism is a work. .that isnt the case. It is no more a work than repenting or confessing christ all of which are ingredients in being saved. Like I have said before read the bible and dont make a religion by listening to and reading lessons or commutaries from people who never walked with Christ while he was alive. The Bible is ,as mentioned ,what we will be judged by not mans opinions.
Not all will be saved note the scripture where some will say Lord Lord did we not perform many works in your name .The reply was depart you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. They believed in Jesus but fell short of salvation. Therefore belief only is voided in this verse. I pray all who read this post will open the Word of God (not man) and study it with an open mind putting aside whatever you have been taught or heard. Its a wonderful thing to have a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ not to mention Christ offers the best retirement plan ever. God bless!!!!

It all goes back to what I said earlier in the discussion....you have to know who is being spoken to and who God is dealing with at that moment in the transition to the age of Grace. Peter did not fully understand what God was doing by opening his grace up to the gentiles and he especially did not yet understand it in Acts 2:38 which you have referenced a couple of times. The dispensation of Grace (to the gentiles) was given to Paul, not Peter. Peter himself admitted that he struggled to understand all that God was doing by opening up salvation to the Gentiles (II Peter 3:15-17). It's clear throughout the New Testament that Peter was not intended to be our priest as gentiles, but instead Paul was the recipient of God's instruction to the gentiles. The Old Testament, the Gospels, and the beginning chapters of the book of Acts are all dealing with God's covenant with Israel though, of course, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." We learn much for those books about the holiness of our God, his faithfulness, the life of our Messiah, etc. and there is absolutely no way we can understand all that we do know about God the Father without them, but those Scriptures are not our (i.e. gentiles) specific instructions for salvation. Paul took the sum total of God's history with mankind to that point and transitioned us to the age of Grace according to God's perfect will and I humbly believe he is the authority on such matters. If God trusted him, then so do I.

One cool point I meant to throw in there is that I love reading about how even though Peter was a Jewish apostle who God called to be a minister to Israel, he did get a personal taste of the expansion of salvation to the Gentiles in Acts 10 & 11. Note that the Gentiles there received the Holy Spirit as soon as they believed upon the Gospel that Peter shared with them. They were baptized AFTER having already received the Spirit. When you look at an individual set of Scripture, with the rest of Scripture in mind, it all fits together beautifully and seeming conflicts disappear.

Guys,I didn't read every comment but part of the problem is one of translation.

Baptize is a Greek word that to them just ment immerse.It has come to mean a religious ceremony to us.To be saved we must be immersed in Christ.The ceremony with water is just an example and declaration.

Meant to say something about this statement as well....all in good fun....I'm guessing that you don't study Paul's writings at all then.

jughead im shaking the dust off my feet

There are four Biblical truths that need to be fully and deeply understood in order to fully understand the issue of baptism.

1. God Works Covenantally.
The Latin “testamentum” means covenant so the Old and New Testaments are in reality covenants. The Bible is a Covenant Document. If you look at how God has worked from Genesis through Revelation you will see, without contradiction, his agreements, pacts and promises are covenants. In addition to the actual covenants, there are signs and markers that show the covenants…show the manifestation of His covenants. (Rainbow, Circumcision, Communion, etc…). In Hebrews 13:20 we are told of the Eternal Covenant between God the Father and the Son long before the creation of the world. This is why Christ told us that The Father had given to Him those who will be His (See John 6, specifically verses 35-40 ; and John 17). The New Covenant—the Gospel message-- is shown in its manifestation by Christ Himself. The understanding of the fact that God works covenantally is essential to understanding Baptism.

2. What is baptism exactly?
Baptism is an outward expression of an inward reality. It may represent several different things that are inward realities. It best represents the inward washing of Christ’s blood upon the soul. It is therefore used in different ways with different meanings:

A. It represents the death of a person (Romans 6:3-5)
B. The union of a person with Christ (Galatians 3:27)
C. The cleansing of that person’s sins (Acts 22:16)
D. Identification to the one being “baptized into”, such as the Isrealites with Moses (1 Cor 10:2)
E. United into one Church (1 Cor 12:13)
In addition to the above, Baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace.

3. Covenant of Grace
Baptism is indeed on of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace. The CoG is the promise of God to mankind of eternal life, based upon the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. The New Covenant brought to us changes because Christ became the ultimate sacrifice for all those who would believe. Therefore our Communion Supper replaced The Passover…and in like manner Baptism replaces Circumcision. In the OT circumcision was the mark of entering under the Abrahamic covenant...it did not save a Jew (adult or child) but it-circumcision-, as an outward sign of an internal reality, put them under the covenant between God and Abraham. (Gen 17). Now the New Testament speaks of circumcision often. But to this topic Colossians 2:11-14 is very clear:

11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Baptism and circumcision are connected related in these verses above. Just as in Luke 22:20 we see the Communion supper replaces the Passover supper because no longer was there a need to celebrate and commemorate the shedding of blood of the Egyptian captors because Jesus Christ was about to he His own Holy blood for the redemption of all our sins….thus the New Covenant and True Gospel message is revealed in Christ. So it is with Baptism and circumcision…there is no need for bloodshed within circumcision any longer because Christ has poured out his own blood on our behalf. In baptism no blood is shed. Why? For because the blood of Christ has been shed and circumcision, which ultimately represented the shed blood of Christ in his covenant work of redemption, was a foreshadowing of Christ's work.

Baptism is a covenant sign , and if one understands this, then one can see that it is a representation of the REALITY of Christ circumcising our hearts. It is our outward proclamation of our inward spiritual blessing of regeneration---the Gospel Message alive in us. Thnis outward way of proclaiming that Christ is within us comes after Faith, which is a gift of God.

Romans 2:28-29: 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 12:1-3: I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Our spiritual regeneration is the circumcision of the heart and our baptism is our outward expression of that inward reality.

4. It is the Gospel that saves
The Bible tells us that it is the GOSPEL that saves us..that covenant relationship exposed for us to see God’s perfect gift of grace through our faith in His Son Jesus Christ who lived and died on the Cross for the payment of the penalty for our sins. 1 Cor 15:1-2; Romans 1:16

The blood of Jesus Christ is the key…that is where redemption truly lies and that is the Gospel message. Hebrews 9:14; Romans 5:9; Ephesians 1:7

Romans 6:4 "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die -- unless, of course, it is a figurative usage. And that is what it is here. The figure of baptism represents the reality of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It is a covenant sign for us. Remember, a covenant sign represents the covenant. The covenant sign of baptism represents the covenant of grace which is that covenant between God and the Christian where we receive the grace of God through the person of Christ by means of his sacrifice.

Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.
*************************
In conclusion, these four concepts are key into understanding the gospel message and how baptism fits into it. Faith and the blood of Christ is what gives us redemption and salvation--we are therefore justified before God. Salvation comes first with a circumcision of the heart (the inward baptism). To be obedient however, we are to be baptized by water--that outward identification of us indwelling with Christ and the public display of the inward reality. Every professing believer needs to be baptized.

http://www.gospelhour.net/2061.html explains pauls teaching since some prefer others sfudy results. Which is fine as long as it is compared to the Bible

Family fighting stomach virus this week...finally hit me but I'm through it now. 5 of us right in a row Sunday through yesterday. Rough times.

EXACTLY...though you and I disagree on the meaning of "Christ's baptism." All throughout the New Testament, Paul teaches baptism into the body of Christ Jesus by faith. I'll list them here in a little while if you would like to spend some time refuting or explaning them, but there are many scriptures of Paul's writings (I'm sure you're already aware of them) where salavation is explained and characterized, never mentioning water baptism. Baptism into the death, burial, and resurrection is an act of the Holy Spirit, dry as a bone, by faith. Same precept here as in Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12.

Paul is the God-appointed authority on preaching to Jew and Gentile alike in the age of grace. You see that all throughout the New Testament as he exhaustedly teaches, contrasts, and corrects concerning the Gospel of Grace to both the Jew and Gentile, proper handling of the Law, etc. Acts 19 is really cool because it shows exactly what I'm trying to explain and what I humbly believe. You have a group of Jewish believers who had become believers under the Gospel of the Kingdom at the preaching of John. At the time they heard and believed, Christ had not yet died and been resurrected and of course the Day of Pentecost and the giving of the promised Holy Spirit had not taken place. As a result, they were already saved because they had repented and been baptized under the Gospel of the Kingdom, yet they had not yet received the Holy Spirit because they hadn't heard the Gospel of Grace! They simply didn't yet have knowledge of what was available to them but Paul shared the truth with them once he realized what they had heard and believed.

The transition of God's focus from the fulfilling of his covenant with Israel to the new covenant is probably the most fascinating thing I've ever studied in the Bible. For years, I struggled with what seemed to be conflicts between what Paul taught all throughout the New Testament concerning salvation vs. what was contained in the early books of Acts and the Gospels. I'm at peace with that issue now. When all of the Scriptures are taken into account simulatenously, it fits together beautifully and seeming conflicts disappear. In my humble opinoin, regardless of what someone believes concerning this particular issue, it's all about faith in Christ Jesus. Most who truly believe that faith alone is what saves immediately follow the Lord in believer's baptism as the first act of obedience to their Savior. I did the same because my life's desire to obey and please Him in all that I do. But, based upon the totality of the Scriptures and what I believe to be accurate concerning salvation in the Age of Grace, as well as the experience of my own salvation experience, I'll never believe that if someone truly believes on Christ Jesus and is hit by a train before they can ever get dunked that they will go to hell. My God is simply bigger than that. Heck, I even believe that those who have NEVER EVEN HEARD a word of the Bible have the opportunity to be saved, in accordance with Scripture, but that is a topic for another day.

Just joking around with you pal.

Hey strayat....which #3 is most important...the first one or the second one? J/K pal!

Great post as always!

Corrected my nubering for jugheaded members.