Hey Jughead im not mad at you I enjoy reading your posts I just realize the futility of discussing this further. Youre gonna believe what you were taught and Im going to believe what I wasnt taught. I believe and will always believe literally acts 2:38 and all the new testament. I grew up in a Baptist church from a baby and never questioned what the preacher said. Im 46 now and have problems with some of the teachings. It was when I started reading the scripture 15 years ago with an open mind that things got clear.

You just described me to a T

Good deal brother! FYI....I did not grow up in church and my parents have not been believers for nearly as long as I have. Since becoming a believer in Christ Jesus as a young man, I've studied the Scriptures inside and out, comparing Scripture with Scripture (including the original Hebrew and Greek when I'm confused about something that seems to contradict the totality of the Bible) and have explored the doctrine of every Christian church in America. I'm not tied to any denomination by family history or tradition and would be willing to go to any kind of church that I best believed stood upon the totality of the truth of God's word. In my humble opinion, based upon Biblical truth revealed to me by the person of the Holy Spirit through my personal studies, the church I currently attend gets the most things right across all doctrinal truths from salvation to missions to giving to baptism to the Trinity, etc. I don't agree with every word that comes from my pastor's mouth...He's human just like me and makes mistakes, but I agree with the attributes of his life when compared to Scripture and prayerfully back him, support him, and submit to his pastoral authority in accordance with God's word.

Great discussion. This is a great example of why I love ALDEER!

300, I grew up Baptist as well and I believe in a literal Acts 2:38 also. I think the question here is what does Acts 2:38 "literally" say? To find out you have to breakdown the language..the alliteration of the Greek manuscripts. Then put that into context with the entire scripture. I do not know of a single occurrence where a major doctrinal issue was only found and supported in one verse. To fully know what the Scriptures say one really needs to do three things:

Examination of the verse's syntax, grammar and structure.
Examine other verses dealing with the forgiveness of sins.
Examine the verse in its covenant context.




The Greek: the main verb is metanoesate (change mind), the aorist direct imperative (a command) of metanoeo which means to repent (change mind). This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvation. The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative (a command to receive; hence, passive voice in Greek1) of baptizo, which does not give it the same direct command implied in "repent." The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Greek is "eis," unto or into, and it is in the accusative case (direct object). It can mean "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins." It is the same preposition we find in 1 Cor. 10:2 in the phrase "and were baptized unto Moses." Note that both contexts are dealing with baptism and identification. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the people were baptized or spiritually identifying themselves with the purposes and vision of Moses.

Repentance, therefore, is presented as identifying an individual with the remission of his sins, even as baptism following repentance provides an external identification visible by others. Repentance is something that concerns an individual and God while baptism involves others. That is why baptistheto (let be immersed) is in the passive voice indicating that one does not baptize himself, but is baptized by another usually in the presence of others. Repentance, however, is an act taking place within a person's heart as the Holy Spirit moves in the sinner.

As Circumcision was an outward sign of the Old Covenant, Baptism is the outward sign of the New Covenant. We are IDENTIFIED in Christ through Baptism. Nowhere in Scripture does it tell us that we are justified by grace + baptism, faith + baptism, or faith + anything else. We are however told how to be obedient because of our faith.

Paul in his writings to the Corinthians does not include Baptism in the Gospel message (1 Cor 14 and 15). Acts 10 shows that there was salvation prior to any baptism of the Gentiles because the Spirit came upon them. Now if baptism was required for salvation (faith + doctrine) then how did that happen? The Bible teaches strait from its word that we are justified by Faith alone in Christ alone by Grace alone.

This all goes back to the covenant context. The Jews were given a covenant sign of circumcision through Abraham..they the Jews were God's chosen people. Circumcision didn't save them though in the OT, They were saved by the Law and righteousness. The New Testament brought a new covenant through Christ's blood on the cross. The outward covenant sign is Baptism, but baptism doesn't save us. Faith and belief in the Gospel message (Christ died for us as a sacrifice) is the only thing that justifies us sinners to a Holy God. As non-Jews we could not enter the Abrahamic covenant...but through Christ we can because we are baptised of the heart (circumcised by Christ in our hearts).

Every true believer is indeed baptized by a regeneration of the heart but this is inward. Outward baptism is a sign that we believe. An important sign. In essence it replaces the OT covenant of circumcision. But Scripture shows us that it is not faith + baptism that gives us justification.

So as Peter was preaching to the Jews in Acts 2, he was telling them of the new way...the new covenant...and the new covenant sign of baptism. Later in acts 10, the spirit fell upon them before any were ever baptized by water. Their spirit experienced a circumcision of the heart...a baptism inwardly of Christ. Peter wasn't preaching water baptism here.

Acts 2:38 closely links repentance and baptism because of the covenant context. Peter is saying that baptism is the complete and total covenant identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. It is not the covenant representation (baptism) of what Christ did that saves us, but the reality of His sacrifice which we receive by faith.

The Scripture lays this out clearly. We may disagree on the Scripture context, but the Word is clear.

I just felt led to bump this back up. Maybe there is one or more members or people just looking around on here that could read this thread and it my change their life. Thanks ALDEER brothers. I have came to love aldeer and I don't know of any other hunting forum that has so many members that will openly talk about God. This thread along with others has helped me over the past week or so in some tough times.

The above article can be found here: http://carm.org/baptism-and-acts-238 . I failed to source this and it has been brought to my attention that I should have done so. I agree. So here it is. The other post in this thread also uses some material from CARM as well.