Zeiss
by OutdoorBug. 02/04/25 09:20 PM
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: Tru-Talker]
#669428
09/05/13 04:16 PM
09/05/13 04:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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You have to start somewhere.... It takes history to create data.... We in Alabama have no history... In order to get history the State has established this program... It is and has worked in other States... and will work in this State when we get a report on the past data.. In order to get this data you have to have people/hunters tell us what is going on in the kill zone... That's simply not true. Every wildlife management area in this state has kept records of deer killed, recorded by sex and weight and pulled jawbones for age determination ever since I can remember. The same information has been collected by every cooperator in the DMAP program since it was first implemented in 1984. Those cooperators included owners of large tracts of company owned lands such as Gulf States/Westervelt. I was required to log every deer killed and record the weights and pull jawbones on many of those lands back in the early '90s when I first started hunting on leased lands. It's highly unlikely that was the only large landowner that had such requirements for record keeping. If the DCNR has no history, its because they don't want any history. Those records have been there all along for the asking.
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: Frankie]
#669430
09/05/13 04:18 PM
09/05/13 04:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
YEKRUT
OP
Turkey Nut
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OP
Turkey Nut
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
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A few questions to ponder.
1. How did they manage deer through the 70's & 80's when they didn't have this information? There were areas that had near zero deer, but had substantial increases in deer populations during that time and the limit on bucks was one per day.
2. How can the DNCR manage deer populations in counties like Jefferson where there are many small landowners that do not allow hunting or large landowners like Barber's, etc that do not allow hunting? I live in Jefferson County in a small cul-de-sac subdivision and see deer in my neighborhood daily and they feed in my yard when the acorns fall and the University of Alabama owns large parcels around me that can not be hunted. How does killed records help manage that??
3. How do they get accurate information in rural counties where large tracks are leased by a few trophy, excuse me, "mature" deer only hunters that kill very few deer per acre in a area that has a high deer populations? Or large landowners that only allow a very select few hunt and shoot only one or two deer because they like for their grandkids to see deer when they come to visit? How do kill records help??
The most important question:
4. Can the State manage deer better in and around the property you hunt on having never set foot on it and just reviewing deer kill records of deer killed 20 miles away on the other side of the County than you can when you know what you property offers wildlife and what you see and experience on the land that you hunt??????
I for one believe that the individual can manage for the goals they set for their hunting property better than the State can manage the same property from useless kill data. Is there any problems with the State having BROAD guidelines and allowing the individual to manage to their own goals and wants?? You can't manage sh@# unless you have a fenced in property where you can control every aspect of the deer habitat and kill rate depending on what you want in your management scenario.. well ,, you guess . we been doing it for years . iv'e been hunting for almost 40 years and the hunting imo has gotten better and better . less than ten years ago i could have a garden with out a fence , i can't know . I don't imagine buck limits, doe limits or people managing deer has a darn thing to do with that either does it. 10 years ago everyone killed all they wanted and then some, a buck a day will keep them out of your garden I imagine. You might be a biologist and just don't know it yet. Nice find.
Some men are mere hunters; others are turkey hunters. —Archibald Rutledge—
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: NightHunter]
#669433
09/05/13 04:19 PM
09/05/13 04:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 18,000
Elmore County
Frankie
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 18,000
Elmore County
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You can't manage sh@# unless you have a fenced in property where you can control every aspect of the deer habitat and kill rate depending on what you want in your management scenario..
There is no way you mean that the way it sounds. You absolutely can manage properties. You have to have realistic expectations based on your location and size of property though. I manage a tract in AL that in 5 years our average buck weight for a 4.5 year old went from 180-185 up to just over 205 and an average score from 115 to around 125 (with multiple 140-150 class deer annually). Average age of bucks harvested went from 2,5 to 4.5. Fawn recruitment is through the roof. Doe weights are unbelievable as well. You can manage property. Size, location and neighbors are your big influences. yep without controlling them neighbors management is tough .
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: NightHunter]
#669436
09/05/13 04:20 PM
09/05/13 04:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,494
Jefferson
Fun4all
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,494
Jefferson
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You can't manage sh@# unless you have a fenced in property where you can control every aspect of the deer habitat and kill rate depending on what you want in your management scenario..
There is no way you mean that the way it sounds. You absolutely can manage properties. You have to have realistic expectations based on your location and size of property though. I manage a tract in AL that in 5 years our average buck weight for a 4.5 year old went from 180-185 up to just over 205 and an average score from 115 to around 125 (with multiple 140-150 class deer annually). Average age of bucks harvested went from 2,5 to 4.5. Fawn recruitment is through the roof. Doe weights are unbelievable as well. You can manage property. Size, location and neighbors are your big influences. So do you believe that the State can manage that same tract better than you?? Or, do you want the State to manage your neighbors?? I will guess that you are a no on the State managing your property better than you, but a yes on wanting the State to manage your neighbors, am I right??
"After all, it is not the killing that brings satisfaction; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." Dr. Saxton Pope
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: NightHunter]
#669438
09/05/13 04:21 PM
09/05/13 04:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
Tru-Talker
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
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You can't manage sh@# unless you have a fenced in property where you can control every aspect of the deer habitat and kill rate depending on what you want in your management scenario..
There is no way you mean that the way it sounds. You absolutely can manage properties. You have to have realistic expectations based on your location and size of property though. I manage a tract in AL that in 5 years our average buck weight for a 4.5 year old went from 180-185 up to just over 205 and an average score from 115 to around 125 (with multiple 140-150 class deer annually). Average age of bucks harvested went from 2,5 to 4.5. Fawn recruitment is through the roof. Doe weights are unbelievable as well. You can manage property. Size, location and neighbors are your big influences. You just summed it up with that post.... How can the State manage Statewide with one universal rule over every county??? It can't happen.... But yet.... The entire State must go by the 3 buck rule.... Soooo.. All counties are equal then.. Right???
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves...
Confucius
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: 49er]
#669445
09/05/13 04:23 PM
09/05/13 04:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
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These numbers will be used to understand herd dynamics from top to bottom. Age structure, sex ratios, harvest numbers, total numbers and etc.. Eventually they will be coupled with browse surveys, fetal surveys and the like to get a handle on carrying capacity and herd health. An undertaking like this takes time. They have a plan but it is a step by step process. They have the tools and the minds to do it, now they just need the time and data.
TN has done a tremendous job with their data collection. I hope we are as successful. Why should the people of this state be funding and conducting your wildlife management for you through a government agency? Let's forget TN or any other state for just a moment and look at Alabama's game and fish laws. Show me where the wildlife management you describe is defined by law as a function and duty of the DCNR. I'll give you a little hint. It is authorized as an option on properly designated wildlife management areas that are under the control of the DCNR. If you want to manipulate the game on property you own or supervise, then have at it. That's an option you have as a property owner or leaseholder. It is not a lawful function of the DCNR. Where did I say anything about manipulation. You are trying to make it fit your argument. You must do these surveys to understand the overall dynamics of the system. Without that fundamental understanding we are just guessing. Which is what has been done for decades. They've been making the most educated guess they could. It is not about manipulation like you want to think.
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: NightHunter]
#669450
09/05/13 04:26 PM
09/05/13 04:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
Tru-Talker
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
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Tru-talker
Read above post. State is not doing it to manipulate. It is not about manipulation..... It is about State management of the herd....Right?? They are saying all counties are equal...And I think we all know....they are not.. 49er was the one that mentioned manipualtion... Not me..
Last edited by Tru-Talker; 09/05/13 04:27 PM.
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves...
Confucius
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: Fun4all]
#669455
09/05/13 04:29 PM
09/05/13 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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NightHunter, ... I manage a tract in AL that in 5 years our average buck weight for a 4.5 year old went from 180-185 up to just over 205 and an average score from 115 to around 125 (with multiple 140-150 class deer annually). Average age of bucks harvested went from 2,5 to 4.5.
Fawn recruitment is through the roof. Doe weights are unbelievable as well.
You can manage property. Size, location and neighbors are your big influences. So why do you need the state to do it for you? Did this happen without the new proposed reporting rule that you're supporting now? Why do you have a need to know what is happening on the lease where I hunt or the land where anyone else hunts?
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: YEKRUT]
#669456
09/05/13 04:31 PM
09/05/13 04:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
YEKRUT
OP
Turkey Nut
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OP
Turkey Nut
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
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With county data they can make decisions on a county level.... Create units if need be.......increase harvest in some, decrease in others..., why can't people understand that. What we have now is statewide data. What we will be getting is county data.
Some men are mere hunters; others are turkey hunters. —Archibald Rutledge—
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: 49er]
#669458
09/05/13 04:32 PM
09/05/13 04:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
Tru-Talker
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
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Why do you have a need to know what is happening on the lease where I hunt or the land where anyone else hunts?
They won't!!!! Where I hunt... Don't need them....
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves...
Confucius
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: YEKRUT]
#669459
09/05/13 04:34 PM
09/05/13 04:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 18,000
Elmore County
Frankie
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 18,000
Elmore County
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A few questions to ponder.
1. How did they manage deer through the 70's & 80's when they didn't have this information? There were areas that had near zero deer, but had substantial increases in deer populations during that time and the limit on bucks was one per day.
2. How can the DNCR manage deer populations in counties like Jefferson where there are many small landowners that do not allow hunting or large landowners like Barber's, etc that do not allow hunting? I live in Jefferson County in a small cul-de-sac subdivision and see deer in my neighborhood daily and they feed in my yard when the acorns fall and the University of Alabama owns large parcels around me that can not be hunted. How does killed records help manage that??
3. How do they get accurate information in rural counties where large tracks are leased by a few trophy, excuse me, "mature" deer only hunters that kill very few deer per acre in a area that has a high deer populations? Or large landowners that only allow a very select few hunt and shoot only one or two deer because they like for their grandkids to see deer when they come to visit? How do kill records help??
The most important question:
4. Can the State manage deer better in and around the property you hunt on having never set foot on it and just reviewing deer kill records of deer killed 20 miles away on the other side of the County than you can when you know what you property offers wildlife and what you see and experience on the land that you hunt??????
I for one believe that the individual can manage for the goals they set for their hunting property better than the State can manage the same property from useless kill data. Is there any problems with the State having BROAD guidelines and allowing the individual to manage to their own goals and wants?? You can't manage sh@# unless you have a fenced in property where you can control every aspect of the deer habitat and kill rate depending on what you want in your management scenario.. well ,, you guess . we been doing it for years . iv'e been hunting for almost 40 years and the hunting imo has gotten better and better . less than ten years ago i could have a garden with out a fence , i can't know . I don't imagine buck limits, doe limits or people managing deer has a darn thing to do with that either does it. 10 years ago everyone killed all they wanted and then some, a buck a day will keep them out of your garden I imagine. You might be a biologist and just don't know it yet. Nice find. just because i could have kill a buck a day does not mean i did . the bucks i hunt have it pretty easy , its the does that catch hell . lol what caused my problem was they ban dog hunting in my area. less hunters less deer killed . some may have killed all they wanted but i don't see where it hurt the population any , at least where i hunt /hunted .
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: NightHunter]
#669461
09/05/13 04:36 PM
09/05/13 04:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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NightHunter, Where did I say anything about manipulation. You are trying to make it fit your argument. You must do these surveys to understand the overall dynamics of the system. Without that fundamental understanding we are just guessing. Which is what has been done for decades. They've been making the most educated guess they could.
It is not about manipulation like you want to think. Tell me how you think age structures, sex ratios, carrying capacities or any of the other QDMA lingo you and the advisory board members use can be accomplished without manipulation of the species.
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: YEKRUT]
#669462
09/05/13 04:36 PM
09/05/13 04:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
Tru-Talker
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
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I don't need the State telling me what I need to kill or what I don't need to kill on our property... And it will stay at that...
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves...
Confucius
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: YEKRUT]
#669463
09/05/13 04:38 PM
09/05/13 04:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,059
USA
Remington270
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,059
USA
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With county data they can make decisions on a county level.... Create units if need be.......increase harvest in some, decrease in others..., why can't people understand that. What we have now is statewide data. What we will be getting is county data. I see your point, but here's the problem. In the area I hunt, there might be just as many deer killed as Dallas County, but about 5x as many hunter-days, because there are more hunters and they hunt more, because they live there. In other words, it takes longer to kill a deer, but none of that info is captured with this data. We might kill 1/2 of our population while they only kill 1/10th.
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: 49er]
#669464
09/05/13 04:39 PM
09/05/13 04:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
YEKRUT
OP
Turkey Nut
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OP
Turkey Nut
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
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NightHunter, ... I manage a tract in AL that in 5 years our average buck weight for a 4.5 year old went from 180-185 up to just over 205 and an average score from 115 to around 125 (with multiple 140-150 class deer annually). Average age of bucks harvested went from 2,5 to 4.5.
Fawn recruitment is through the roof. Doe weights are unbelievable as well.
You can manage property. Size, location and neighbors are your big influences. Why do you have a need to know what is happening on the lease where I hunt or the land where anyone else hunts? We won't, they won't.....pull off the tinfoil hat Eddie. This ain't about just you or our lease, it is about everyone's lease, my kids lease one day, and their kids places. The future doesn't have us in it and I would like to,see something left for the future generations to hunt without having to,drive to the black belt to a high fence pay operation because some god ole boys decided hey cold kill 10 deer a day and it be ok in north alabama.
Some men are mere hunters; others are turkey hunters. —Archibald Rutledge—
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: YEKRUT]
#669467
09/05/13 04:40 PM
09/05/13 04:40 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 18,000
Elmore County
Frankie
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 18,000
Elmore County
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With county data they can make decisions on a county level.... Create units if need be.......increase harvest in some, decrease in others..., why can't people understand that. What we have now is statewide data. What we will be getting is county data. because if they go by the data i submit they will screw up bad . i have a buck/doe ratio of about 1 to 2 . in the last three years alone i have killed 26 does and no bucks . how will that data help them ????
Last edited by Frankie; 09/05/13 05:10 PM.
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: Remington270]
#669469
09/05/13 04:43 PM
09/05/13 04:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
YEKRUT
OP
Turkey Nut
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OP
Turkey Nut
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
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With county data they can make decisions on a county level.... Create units if need be.......increase harvest in some, decrease in others..., why can't people understand that. What we have now is statewide data. What we will be getting is county data. I see your point, but here's the problem. In the area I hunt, there might be just as many deer killed as Dallas County, but about 5x as many hunter-days, because there are more hunters and they hunt more, because they live there. In other words, it takes longer to kill a deer, but none of that info is captured with this data. We might kill 1/2 of our population while they only kill 1/10th. That information could be collected though and may be already in some of the hunter use surveys they send out. I am sure it is possible to do. I know they do it on wmas all over the country where people sign in and out. There are good ole boys who hangout their back door in every county so I am not sure I buy that angle.
Some men are mere hunters; others are turkey hunters. —Archibald Rutledge—
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: 49er]
#669471
09/05/13 04:43 PM
09/05/13 04:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
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NightHunter, Where did I say anything about manipulation. You are trying to make it fit your argument. You must do these surveys to understand the overall dynamics of the system. Without that fundamental understanding we are just guessing. Which is what has been done for decades. They've been making the most educated guess they could.
It is not about manipulation like you want to think. Tell me how you think age structures, sex ratios, carrying capacities or any of the other QDMA lingo you and the advisory board members use can be accomplished without manipulation of the species. If you can't understand that all of those are indicators of herd health whether there is human influence by management or not then you're just dense. Those numbers will tell us the herd is doing whether they say kill em all or not. Whether the three buck rule goes to 1 buck per year or goes to 1 buck per day. It is the same information regardless how it is used. Can I explain it in another way?
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Re: The 24 hour rule on check in
[Re: Frankie]
#669473
09/05/13 04:45 PM
09/05/13 04:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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Yekrut, We won't, they won't.....pull off the tinfoil hat Eddie. This ain't about just you or our lease, it is about everyone's lease, my kids lease one day, and their kids places. The future doesn't have us in it and I would like to,see something left for the future generations to hunt without having to,drive to the black belt to a high fence pay operation because some god ole boys decided hey cold kill 10 deer a day and it be ok in north alabama. Your kids won't be hunting on the land where I hunt now or in the future ... regardless of what hat kind of hat I'm wearing. You're hoping the DCNR will go beyond the bounds of its authority and try to implement mandatory wildlife management where it is not authorized. Keep your QDMA store bought brand of ideas on your own property and leave the rest of us alone to hunt. Conservation is alive and well without all your "sky is falling" antics. Maybe you should take your tin foil hat off.
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