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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#679589
09/15/13 09:50 AM
09/15/13 09:50 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
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Your season closes before ours and I could see where that could make it a little tougher. I assume season can be over before all acorns are gone in your area. I have never seen deer able to eat all the acorns, except in a very poor acorn year. The one possibility--other than an acorn failure--is a year with no red oak acorns. White oak varieties will go to root in late November up here and deer will hardly touch them after that. Red oak acorns last through the winter. In our area it's pretty rare to have acorns left by the last day of Jan. It can happen with a bumper crop heavy to Red Oak acorns. What I've seen is where timber has been cut with hunting in mind, that being a jigsaw pattern, leaving pinch points between cut areas, after breeding starts bucks go from thicket to thicket. Those thickets hold the doe groups and bucks use them like scrapes. I've had good success setting up in uncut pinch points between thickets. An area with hundreds of acres all cut hard, being one huge feeding/bedding area would be tougher to hunt.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#679635
09/15/13 10:53 AM
09/15/13 10:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057
Tuscaloosa Co.
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Timber value wise, clear cutting or heavily thinning around oaks is the worst thing you can do. The problem is, too many foresters only think about timber value. Those who purchase land just for hunting could care less about long-term timber value and care everything for deer value. That's why I DON'T recommend those trying to manage their properties for wildlife seek the advice of foresters. They are too focused on timber value and don't understand what it takes to produce deer value. The good ones ask what the landowner's management objectives are. That's why I always listen to what the landowner wants and manage accordingly. The landowners I deal with need to manage their timber to be able to afford to achieve their goals.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#679679
09/15/13 11:54 AM
09/15/13 11:54 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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Timber value wise, clear cutting or heavily thinning around oaks is the worst thing you can do. The problem is, too many foresters only think about timber value. Those who purchase land just for hunting could care less about long-term timber value and care everything for deer value. That's why I DON'T recommend those trying to manage their properties for wildlife seek the advice of foresters. They are too focused on timber value and don't understand what it takes to produce deer value. The good ones ask what the landowner's management objectives are. That's why I always listen to what the landowner wants and manage accordingly. The problem is, very, very, very few foresters understand how to manage hardwoods SPECIFICALLY to maximum benefit for deer AND for hunters. I can count the number I know of that do on just a couple of fingers.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: 2Dogs]
#679681
09/15/13 11:59 AM
09/15/13 11:59 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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Your season closes before ours and I could see where that could make it a little tougher. I assume season can be over before all acorns are gone in your area. I have never seen deer able to eat all the acorns, except in a very poor acorn year. The one possibility--other than an acorn failure--is a year with no red oak acorns. White oak varieties will go to root in late November up here and deer will hardly touch them after that. Red oak acorns last through the winter. In our area it's pretty rare to have acorns left by the last day of Jan. It can happen with a bumper crop heavy to Red Oak acorns. We've still got many, many whites under the leaves in late January, but they've gone to root and deer aren't eating them anymore. Now, reds, if we have them, the deer are still eating them until spring. I think a lot of hunters assume "all the acorns are eaten up" because they don't see them on the ground. But blow or rake away the leaves, and they are there. Another thing to look at is deer stomach contents. Time and again, I've heard hunters claim all the acorns are gone, but deer stomach contents are still 95% acorns. They're finding them somewhere!
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#679692
09/15/13 12:17 PM
09/15/13 12:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057
Tuscaloosa Co.
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Timber value wise, clear cutting or heavily thinning around oaks is the worst thing you can do. The problem is, too many foresters only think about timber value. Those who purchase land just for hunting could care less about long-term timber value and care everything for deer value. That's why I DON'T recommend those trying to manage their properties for wildlife seek the advice of foresters. They are too focused on timber value and don't understand what it takes to produce deer value. The good ones ask what the landowner's management objectives are. That's why I always listen to what the landowner wants and manage accordingly. The problem is, very, very, very few foresters understand how to manage hardwoods SPECIFICALLY to maximum benefit for deer AND for hunters. I can count the number I know of that do on just a couple of fingers. So, how do you manage your hardwoods?
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#679709
09/15/13 01:12 PM
09/15/13 01:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
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Your season closes before ours and I could see where that could make it a little tougher. I assume season can be over before all acorns are gone in your area. I have never seen deer able to eat all the acorns, except in a very poor acorn year. The one possibility--other than an acorn failure--is a year with no red oak acorns. White oak varieties will go to root in late November up here and deer will hardly touch them after that. Red oak acorns last through the winter. In our area it's pretty rare to have acorns left by the last day of Jan. It can happen with a bumper crop heavy to Red Oak acorns. We've still got many, many whites under the leaves in late January, but they've gone to root and deer aren't eating them anymore. Now, reds, if we have them, the deer are still eating them until spring. I think a lot of hunters assume "all the acorns are eaten up" because they don't see them on the ground. But blow or rake away the leaves, and they are there. Another thing to look at is deer stomach contents. Time and again, I've heard hunters claim all the acorns are gone, but deer stomach contents are still 95% acorns. They're finding them somewhere! True, just because you don't have any in your favorite hunting area, doesn't mean there aren't some on the next ridge. Stomach contents can tell a lot.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: TatSoul]
#679787
09/15/13 02:35 PM
09/15/13 02:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 282 The Woods
CPiper
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 282
The Woods
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We would have no way to accurately identify the type of tree/acorn without seeing what you are seeing. Got a pic to post?
White Oak subgenus are bluff, bur, chapman, chestnut, chinquapin, live, over cup, post, sand live, sand post, swamp and white. Red Oak subgenus are black, blackjack, bluejack, diamond leaf, laurel, live, myrtle, northern red, pin, runner scrub, shumard, southern red, swamp red, turkey, water, willow Acorn production and oak tree genetics are not sure fire positive. Only the tree and Momma Nature (God) really know the hows and whys of mast production on a given year. But one thing is known for sure - there has to be sufficient pollination to produce healthy mast crops. The biggest acorns I have ever seen is from the American Chestnut - they were HUGE!!! I wish I had a picture to share.
Here is some info I ran across a couple of years ago on acorns; PROTEIN: Reds have more than whites FAT : Reds have more than whites CALORIES: Reds have more than whites FIBER: Reds have more than whites MOISTURE: Whites have more than reds TANNINS (bitter taste): Whites have less than reds Production: White=Annual Red=Biennial (this does not mean all trees in a specific area are on the same-year-cycle) Term of Availability: White are short term, Reds are prolonged
Doing a GOOGLE image search will help you identify which type of acorn tree you are seeing.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: 2Dogs]
#679860
09/15/13 03:45 PM
09/15/13 03:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,153 Hoover
40Bucks
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,153
Hoover
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True, just because you don't have any in your favorite hunting area, doesn't mean there aren't some on the next ridge. Stomach contents can tell a lot.
Very true. That's one thing we always do. It used to be helpful to know if the neighbors were using corn feeders - back when it mattered.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#679996
09/16/13 01:13 AM
09/16/13 01:13 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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So, how do you manage your hardwoods? If the landowner's top (or only) priority is deer, I design timber plans to specifically maximize habitat quality for deer, and to provide the best distribution of high-odds hunting situations.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: 2Dogs]
#679997
09/16/13 01:14 AM
09/16/13 01:14 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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True, just because you don't have any in your favorite hunting area, doesn't mean there aren't some on the next ridge. Stomach contents can tell a lot. And just because you don't see them laying on top of the leaves doesn't mean they aren't there.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#680012
09/16/13 01:38 AM
09/16/13 01:38 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
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True, just because you don't have any in your favorite hunting area, doesn't mean there aren't some on the next ridge. Stomach contents can tell a lot. And just because you don't see them laying on top of the leaves doesn't mean they aren't there. Yep, always get a kick out of watching them run their nose under the leaves. Good time to shoulder your gun or draw your bow.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#680075
09/16/13 03:12 AM
09/16/13 03:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057
Tuscaloosa Co.
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So, how do you manage your hardwoods? If the landowner's top (or only) priority is deer, I design timber plans to specifically maximize habitat quality for deer, and to provide the best distribution of high-odds hunting situations. You don't know any foresters that can do that?
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#680090
09/16/13 03:41 AM
09/16/13 03:41 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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So, how do you manage your hardwoods? If the landowner's top (or only) priority is deer, I design timber plans to specifically maximize habitat quality for deer, and to provide the best distribution of high-odds hunting situations. You don't know any foresters that can do that? Just a very, very few. Most do not understand the art of habitat design to maximize hunting situations in a hardwood environment. How many foresters truly understand how combinations of terrain and habitat drive deer movement patterns, especially older buck movement patterns? A know maybe two or three.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: TatSoul]
#680150
09/16/13 04:43 AM
09/16/13 04:43 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057
Tuscaloosa Co.
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Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough. Although nothing is 100%, but I would say that I know several.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#680162
09/16/13 05:02 AM
09/16/13 05:02 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough. Sounds easy, doesn't it? It's definitely not, especially maintaining the right type of habitat in the right locations as habitat grows, producing the right amount of sanctuary in the best place, interconnecting those sanctuaries through huntable locations, maximizing habitat diversity, creating the right habitat edges in the perfect locations, etc.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#680171
09/16/13 05:15 AM
09/16/13 05:15 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,430
Boxes Cove
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So, how do you manage your hardwoods? If the landowner's top (or only) priority is deer, I design timber plans to specifically maximize habitat quality for deer, and to provide the best distribution of high-odds hunting situations. You don't know any foresters that can do that? Just a very, very few. Most do not understand the art of habitat design to maximize hunting situations in a hardwood environment. How many foresters truly understand how combinations of terrain and habitat drive deer movement patterns, especially older buck movement patterns? A know maybe two or three. I'll bet those two or three understand how bucks move in relation to the terrain and are good hunters themselves .
Last edited by 2Dogs; 09/16/13 05:27 AM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#680231
09/16/13 06:13 AM
09/16/13 06:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,057
Tuscaloosa Co.
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Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough. Sounds easy, doesn't it? It's definitely not, especially maintaining the right type of habitat in the right locations as habitat grows, producing the right amount of sanctuary in the best place, interconnecting those sanctuaries through huntable locations, maximizing habitat diversity, creating the right habitat edges in the perfect locations, etc. I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#680256
09/16/13 06:37 AM
09/16/13 06:37 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough. Sounds easy, doesn't it? It's definitely not, especially maintaining the right type of habitat in the right locations as habitat grows, producing the right amount of sanctuary in the best place, interconnecting those sanctuaries through huntable locations, maximizing habitat diversity, creating the right habitat edges in the perfect locations, etc. I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques. That would cost you a pretty penny! Many, many years of research into how bucks use terrain and habitat, as well as hunter success-based analysis by stand situation have gone into my designs.
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: BSK]
#680269
09/16/13 06:58 AM
09/16/13 06:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 581 On The Move
rackdisaster
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 581
On The Move
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This is a interesting conversation. I have been concerned about the lack of acorns since this spring. The way my house is built, I literally live up the the tree tops, so I have a pretty good view when it comes to looking for acorns. What I have observed in NW AL is that there are very few acorns to be had this year. The white oak acorns were tee tiny and fell off prematurely. The red oak acorns that have fell so far look normal on the outside, but every single one that I have cut open was rotten inside. So, I'm curious to see how it turns out. If you can find a good acorn tree, it could be the only one for miles around? I always thought that acorn production was related to the amount of rainfall from the previous fall?
May The Odds Be Ever In Your Favor 'The Hunger Games'
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Re: Need help on acorn question
[Re: rackdisaster]
#680274
09/16/13 07:10 AM
09/16/13 07:10 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 Nashville, TN
BSK
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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I always thought that acorn production was related to the amount of rainfall from the previous fall? Not really. So many factors are involved with acorn production that picking out the most important one is virtually impossible. And the really crazy thing is I've observed vast differences in acorn production between the same species of tree within a few miles of each other.
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