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Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: TatSoul] #680311
09/16/13 07:58 AM
09/16/13 07:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 788
Tide Country
glenncmp Offline
4 point
glenncmp  Offline
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Posts: 788
Tide Country
Well I guess after reading this I can find one good use for the few hogs we have around our place... 4 legged acorn vacuums!!!!! They can make them ole white tails have to get up and move about some!!!!

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: TatSoul] #680340
09/16/13 08:46 AM
09/16/13 08:46 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Hogs will certainly eat a bunch of acorns.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: BSK] #680359
09/16/13 09:14 AM
09/16/13 09:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
N
N2TRKYS Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N2TRKYS  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough.


Sounds easy, doesn't it? It's definitely not, especially maintaining the right type of habitat in the right locations as habitat grows, producing the right amount of sanctuary in the best place, interconnecting those sanctuaries through huntable locations, maximizing habitat diversity, creating the right habitat edges in the perfect locations, etc.



I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques.


That would cost you a pretty penny! wink

Many, many years of research into how bucks use terrain and habitat, as well as hunter success-based analysis by stand situation have gone into my designs.



Sorry you feel that way.


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: rackdisaster] #680394
09/16/13 09:54 AM
09/16/13 09:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
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N2TRKYS Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N2TRKYS  Offline
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Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
Originally Posted By: rackdisaster

I always thought that acorn production was related to the amount of rainfall from the previous fall?



It's spring rain and no late frost is the winner from what I've experienced.


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: N2TRKYS] #680412
09/16/13 10:11 AM
09/16/13 10:11 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK

That would cost you a pretty penny! wink

Many, many years of research into how bucks use terrain and habitat, as well as hunter success-based analysis by stand situation have gone into my designs.



Sorry you feel that way.


Do you get paid for your job, or do you give away your time and effort?

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: BSK] #680429
09/16/13 10:27 AM
09/16/13 10:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
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N2TRKYS Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N2TRKYS  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK

That would cost you a pretty penny! wink

Many, many years of research into how bucks use terrain and habitat, as well as hunter success-based analysis by stand situation have gone into my designs.



Sorry you feel that way.


Do you get paid for your job, or do you give away your time and effort?




I didn't recall asking you to do anything.


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: N2TRKYS] #680456
09/16/13 10:54 AM
09/16/13 10:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
14 point
truedouble  Offline
14 point
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough.


Sounds easy, doesn't it? It's definitely not, especially maintaining the right type of habitat in the right locations as habitat grows, producing the right amount of sanctuary in the best place, interconnecting those sanctuaries through huntable locations, maximizing habitat diversity, creating the right habitat edges in the perfect locations, etc.



I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques.


I've seen BSK's work and what he does is rare....that being said, in my opinion central and south Alabama are so different than NE. Bama and Tn that what we do in Jackson Co. and what you would do in Tuscaloosa Co. are probably quite different. Take a look at an aerial photo or fly from ATL to Nashville and you will see what I'm talking about. We have thousands and thousands of acres of mixed hardwood mountains with ridges, draws, bluffs, shelfs, valleys, creeks, etc. Nothing like the habitat in 95% of Alabama. To maximize hunting odds, not only do you implement TSI in small sections, but you also have to lay out your edges based on certain terrain features. It's also hard to find loggers that will be willing to work with you on where you want to cut and not cut. One of my best friends family owns a large timber operation out of LA. He and his dad came up to turkey hunt with me this year and were blown away at what our timber crew accomplished. Said his loggers would laugh and walk away if they had to cut where I property is. Consider that and then make it worse by asking the logger to start and stop their cuts at strategic places on the side of a mountain and you don't' generally have a real excited crew cutting for you.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: rackdisaster] #680461
09/16/13 10:56 AM
09/16/13 10:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
14 point
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14 point
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
Originally Posted By: rackdisaster
This is a interesting conversation. I have been concerned about the lack of acorns since this spring. The way my house is built, I literally live up the the tree tops, so I have a pretty good view when it comes to looking for acorns. What I have observed in NW AL is that there are very few acorns to be had this year. The white oak acorns were tee tiny and fell off prematurely. The red oak acorns that have fell so far look normal on the outside, but every single one that I have cut open was rotten inside.
So, I'm curious to see how it turns out. If you can find a good acorn tree, it could be the only one for miles around? wink
I always thought that acorn production was related to the amount of rainfall from the previous fall?


I hope your right. Our deer have lived the dream for the last two falls. Time for them to get up and start looking for their food. wink

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: BSK] #680463
09/16/13 10:58 AM
09/16/13 10:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 599
Daphne AL
B
Baybuzzard Offline
4 point
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4 point
B
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 599
Daphne AL
Originally Posted By: BSK
You're being facetious, right? The WORST thing I can imagine is a good acorn crop into a 5-year-old cutover. Then the deer have all the food they want in the middle of zero-visibility (and zero-access) habitat.


LOL I got pics of a nice buck laying underneath a rich white oak inside an (almost) impenetrable sawbriar thicket. He was camped out. Probably had a bad headache though... with all those acorns bouncing off his noggin grin

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: jmj120] #680476
09/16/13 11:11 AM
09/16/13 11:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 599
Daphne AL
B
Baybuzzard Offline
4 point
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4 point
B
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 599
Daphne AL
Originally Posted By: jmj120
I have found you need a really good pair of binoculars to confirm if the tree has acorns. I can't see them this time of the year with the naked eye. Get you some binocs and look really close. I bet you'll see some acorns in these trees.


Second this. If they don't have any, do go look for others. Some trees will have em, some trees won't, regardless of whether it's a good acorn year, or bad acorn year.

Also, when they start droppin, make sure the ones on the ground are good. Couple seasons ago the nutalls were so thick on the ground it was dangerous to walk around the tree. But the deer/hogs weren't feeding on them. When I went to cracking them open I found out why... most were rotten. So I had to go lookin elsewhere.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: BSK] #680485
09/16/13 11:18 AM
09/16/13 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 599
Daphne AL
B
Baybuzzard Offline
4 point
Baybuzzard  Offline
4 point
B
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 599
Daphne AL
Originally Posted By: BSK
I work primarily with oak forest properties. Yet after years of watching and studying them, I've given up on trying to find the exact conditions that produce good or poor acorn years. There just isn't any consistent predictor (with the exception of a late freeze that kills oak blooms or a severe summer drought).


I've also heard/read that too much rain during blooming can kill a crop. Any truth to this?

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: truedouble] #680498
09/16/13 11:28 AM
09/16/13 11:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
N
N2TRKYS Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N2TRKYS  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
Originally Posted By: truedouble
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough.


Sounds easy, doesn't it? It's definitely not, especially maintaining the right type of habitat in the right locations as habitat grows, producing the right amount of sanctuary in the best place, interconnecting those sanctuaries through huntable locations, maximizing habitat diversity, creating the right habitat edges in the perfect locations, etc.



I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques.


I've seen BSK's work and what he does is rare....that being said, in my opinion central and south Alabama are so different than NE. Bama and Tn that what we do in Jackson Co. and what you would do in Tuscaloosa Co. are probably quite different. Take a look at an aerial photo or fly from ATL to Nashville and you will see what I'm talking about. We have thousands and thousands of acres of mixed hardwood mountains with ridges, draws, bluffs, shelfs, valleys, creeks, etc. Nothing like the habitat in 95% of Alabama. To maximize hunting odds, not only do you implement TSI in small sections, but you also have to lay out your edges based on certain terrain features. It's also hard to find loggers that will be willing to work with you on where you want to cut and not cut. One of my best friends family owns a large timber operation out of LA. He and his dad came up to turkey hunt with me this year and were blown away at what our timber crew accomplished. Said his loggers would laugh and walk away if they had to cut where I property is. Consider that and then make it worse by asking the logger to start and stop their cuts at strategic places on the side of a mountain and you don't' generally have a real excited crew cutting for you.



I'm familiar with how the area looks and differs from AL. The Green Swamp in NC is also very different in topo from here. I didn't say he didn't do good work. I've never seen it. He stated most foresters didn't know how to manage hardwoods for wildlife and I was trying to learn. Guess I'll have to look elsewhere.


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: N2TRKYS] #680546
09/16/13 12:20 PM
09/16/13 12:20 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK

That would cost you a pretty penny! wink

Many, many years of research into how bucks use terrain and habitat, as well as hunter success-based analysis by stand situation have gone into my designs.



Sorry you feel that way.


Do you get paid for your job, or do you give away your time and effort?




I didn't recall asking you to do anything.


What was this?:

"I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques."

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: truedouble] #680551
09/16/13 12:23 PM
09/16/13 12:23 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: truedouble
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Manipulating ground cover with the topo seems easy enough.


Sounds easy, doesn't it? It's definitely not, especially maintaining the right type of habitat in the right locations as habitat grows, producing the right amount of sanctuary in the best place, interconnecting those sanctuaries through huntable locations, maximizing habitat diversity, creating the right habitat edges in the perfect locations, etc.



I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques.


I've seen BSK's work and what he does is rare....that being said, in my opinion central and south Alabama are so different than NE. Bama and Tn that what we do in Jackson Co. and what you would do in Tuscaloosa Co. are probably quite different. Take a look at an aerial photo or fly from ATL to Nashville and you will see what I'm talking about. We have thousands and thousands of acres of mixed hardwood mountains with ridges, draws, bluffs, shelfs, valleys, creeks, etc. Nothing like the habitat in 95% of Alabama. To maximize hunting odds, not only do you implement TSI in small sections, but you also have to lay out your edges based on certain terrain features. It's also hard to find loggers that will be willing to work with you on where you want to cut and not cut. One of my best friends family owns a large timber operation out of LA. He and his dad came up to turkey hunt with me this year and were blown away at what our timber crew accomplished. Said his loggers would laugh and walk away if they had to cut where I property is. Consider that and then make it worse by asking the logger to start and stop their cuts at strategic places on the side of a mountain and you don't' generally have a real excited crew cutting for you.


Dead on the money. The type of work I do would be virtually pointless on flat terrain. I work almost exclusively in mountain and ridge-and-hollow hardwoods.

And yes, finding a logger who will work with you in those conditions is more priceless than a good habitat person.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: Baybuzzard] #680552
09/16/13 12:24 PM
09/16/13 12:24 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: Baybuzzard
Originally Posted By: BSK
I work primarily with oak forest properties. Yet after years of watching and studying them, I've given up on trying to find the exact conditions that produce good or poor acorn years. There just isn't any consistent predictor (with the exception of a late freeze that kills oak blooms or a severe summer drought).


I've also heard/read that too much rain during blooming can kill a crop. Any truth to this?


Yes, it can reduce pollination.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: BSK] #680574
09/16/13 12:53 PM
09/16/13 12:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
N
N2TRKYS Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N2TRKYS  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N
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Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK

That would cost you a pretty penny! wink

Many, many years of research into how bucks use terrain and habitat, as well as hunter success-based analysis by stand situation have gone into my designs.



Sorry you feel that way.


Do you get paid for your job, or do you give away your time and effort?




I didn't recall asking you to do anything.


What was this?:

"I'd like to see some of the examples that you have. I always like to learn new techniques."



How would that be different than what you are doing here?


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: N2TRKYS] #680600
09/16/13 01:29 PM
09/16/13 01:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,384
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
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Boxes Cove
I don't think BSK said most Foresters don't know how to manage hardwoods for wildlife. He said most don't know how to manage for mature whitetails, there's a big difference. Cutting with the topography, creating sanctuaries and edges with huntable ambush locations between them.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: BSK] #680622
09/16/13 01:44 PM
09/16/13 01:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
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N2TRKYS Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N2TRKYS  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
N
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Posts: 15,049
Tuscaloosa Co.
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Timber value wise, clear cutting or heavily thinning around oaks is the worst thing you can do.


The problem is, too many foresters only think about timber value. Those who purchase land just for hunting could care less about long-term timber value and care everything for deer value. That's why I DON'T recommend those trying to manage their properties for wildlife seek the advice of foresters. They are too focused on timber value and don't understand what it takes to produce deer value.



The good ones ask what the landowner's management objectives are. That's why I always listen to what the landowner wants and manage accordingly.


The problem is, very, very, very few foresters understand how to manage hardwoods SPECIFICALLY to maximum benefit for deer AND for hunters. I can count the number I know of that do on just a couple of fingers.


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: BSK] #680649
09/16/13 02:02 PM
09/16/13 02:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,384
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: N2TRKYS
So, how do you manage your hardwoods?


If the landowner's top (or only) priority is deer, I design timber plans to specifically maximize habitat quality for deer, and to provide the best distribution of high-odds hunting situations.



You don't know any foresters that can do that?


Just a very, very few. Most do not understand the art of habitat design to maximize hunting situations in a hardwood environment. How many foresters truly understand how combinations of terrain and habitat drive deer movement patterns, especially older buck movement patterns? A know maybe two or three.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Need help on acorn question [Re: 2Dogs] #680927
09/17/13 01:22 AM
09/17/13 01:22 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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BSK Offline
12 point
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Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
I don't think BSK said most Foresters don't know how to manage hardwoods for wildlife. He said most don't know how to manage for mature whitetails, there's a big difference. Cutting with the topography, creating sanctuaries and edges with huntable ambush locations between them.


What I'm saying is foresters are professionals at managing hardwoods for the long-term production of the timber, and to maximize monetary return for harvested timber. However the vast, vast majority of foresters don't know how to manage hardwoods to maximize the benefit to deer, and certainly haven't had training (or really care about) how timber management can be used to create the highest odds hunting locations.

Any opening of the canopy is going to benefit deer. But benefiting deer and maximizing the benefit are two very different things. Any sudden change in habitat caused by timber removal is going to produce a habitat edge deer will use and hunters can take advantage of. But knowing where to create an edge and the type of edge to create are necessary to creating very high-odds hunting locations. And for those who purchase land for hunting, those two benefits of timber management are what they most want. Now if someone purchased land primarily as a long-term monetary investment, then different story.

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