I'm talking mainly in part people that have lost their jobs & who can't afford the high price of hunting these days..I'm seeing more & more people who've lost their hunting properties because of the high price of hunting land..Hey we lost 1000@cres this year because Peavy out bidded us!!!!!!

Without question, having access to the best hunting land can be expensive. No doubt about it. But what recreational pass-time doesn't improve with money spent?

Well most of these high lease prices is because of people cutting each others throats!..Alot of people i know are getting sick of it, & their spending their time fishing..I'd like for somebody to check the stats on fishing licenses to see if its increased or declined?...

if you really look into the data (survey) , the numbers "mostly" is due to loses in small game hunters . like you said big game aint much if any , any where

BSK: Thanks. Are you the same BSK I used to internet chat with elsewheres?

49er: Because I can. Because I want to. I am an informed and educated hunter, conservationist, naturalist, and I genuinely care about the natural renewable resources of our Great Nation. I do not sit around and wait for deer season to roll around. I am involved in deer and deer hunting year round. I feed on information, data, statistics regarding deer and deer hunting.
I do not owe you and answer, but, maybe my answer will rub off on you and assist you in becoming a better CONSERVATIONIST.

I am NOT knocking the State of Alabama. I just want to know, am curious. I want to know. Knowing herd densities and harvest rates and all that stuff that folks like 49er think (feel) and unimportant.
Where and how does the state get the number for the umber of man days spent to kill a deer or hog. Where do these numbers come from? Is there a mail survey?
Do I really care about the number of man days? Yes - it helps me measure pressure. But, on the other hand, I am going hunting, and it won't/dont matter if it takes me 1 day, 1 hour or a week to kill a deer, that is not the main thing.
How do they arrive at 16 deer being killed on a specific WMA in southern Mobile County? How did they arrive at that specific number of deer? Anyone able to tell me?

Land Prices - again, it is OUR fault. HUNTERS.
If you want to play, you have to pay.
I am also in shock at the land costs down here in AL. I thought $14 was high in SC, but that is about only average in AL - WOW, OUCH!!
There is a club in SC - www.piedmonthuntclub - look it up. Look at the number of acres and dues. Then come back to AL and see if you can find a club with that LOW cost of dues for that amount of land.
Somehow and someway, HUNTERS have set the gauge for the cost of land here in Alabama. And the 2nd sad part of that is the amount of pressure WMA land now receives.

There are more folks fishing than hunting. NON hunters will fish. ANTI hunters will fish.
The cost of gas, insurance, taxes has put a dent in boat ownership the last few years with the overall health of our nation's economy.

A few quick google searches will let you see the data and info first handed.

I think one of the unintended consequences of very liberal harvest regulations is high lease prices. Think about it, if our state had hunting laws like some states, properties with in the same area would all be equal, assuming everyone obeyed the law. Unfortunately you have 2000 acres that was brown it's down for 25 years and then down the road you have a club that's been on QDM for 25 years...which one do you think is going to be able to charge more? go to Illinois and the public land is just as good a private property...why? cause the state has done a better job of managing... in other words there are way less variables in most other states.

CPiper,


For an informed and educated hunter, you've sure got a lot of questions about the reports you scanned over.

If you take time to actually read those reports, most of your questions about where the numbers they use come from will be answered ... but then you probably already know that being educated and informed like you are.

Probably. I don't know anyone else using that username, and I've used it for 15 or so years.

Unless I said something really awful. Then, no, it wasn't me.

I would tend to disagree with those statements. IL doesn't manage at all. Their hunting is great because they're lucky enough to have the best soils and habitat in the nation. You can get away with a lot of mismanagement when you're carrying capacity is unlimited and food sources the best anywhere.

Southeastern states HAVE to manage well to see any results at all. Midwestern states can have a vacant Game Agency building and still grow world record bucks.

Welcome to aldeer Cpiper. I have enjoyed reading you post on this topic but unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions.

OK 49er, I will bite this one time. I am dumb. I am stupid. I am asking YOU to enlighten me, to educate me.
Questions #1. How does the Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources gather the info to determine the number of man days it requires to harvest a deer, hog or turkey on WMA land?
Question #2. What is the deer density of .... (pick a county) ... Clarke County, Alabama?
Question #3. What is the harvest rate of .... (pick a county) .... Clarke County, Alabama.
Question #4. What is the sex ratio of Alabama's deer herd?
Question #5. What did the 300 pound canary say to the cat?
And, a person becomes educated and informed by asking questions. DUH!

BSK: I am pretty sure that is you. Iv used mine for 15 years too. You remember?

States do not manage deer to produce B&C deer, or trophy deer, or to help land owners increase value of their land. States manage deer for 1 reason - population control. By hunter's opinion, some states do a better job of managing deer than others. Anything hunters get in the way of BIG antlers is The Cherry On Top!
Every talks about how well Iowa manages their deer. Iowa manages their deer for population control, just like Alabama, or Georgia.
Id say the only state that does not fit this to a T is Texas. The land owners manage the deer in many places, so it is not apples to apples.
But as BSK pointed out, the MidWest has things the SouthEast does not; VERY fertile soil, SHORT gun seasons, SMALL buck limits, a Gazillion Million tons of nutrition that is grown in that VERY fertile soil, a different subspecies of deer then what we have in the SouthEast ...... and more.
I am GLAD to see Alabama went to a 3 buck limit. Buck Deer are not an infinite resource. All natural renewable resources have to be managed to ensure their future. The deer cant do it, they just aint smart enough. But, the deer are the easy part to manage. The human-beans are the tough ones to manage!

TrueDouble: Liberal Limits and Long Gun Seasons do help drive lease costs. But from my experience the biggest driving force is BIG antlers.
For Example: South Carolina has a gun season that is 4.5 months long. NO limit on bucks. Bait is legal. Dogs are legal. Antler restrictions apply per the state on only a few state lands. They are multiple ways to harvest doe deer (ADQP, Doe Days, Individual Doe Tags). You do not have to wear orange. Almost anything and everything is legal on private land. But, the cost of leases are half of what Alabama's is. $14 is high. $24 an acres would cause state wide panic!
Alabama does not have as long a season. Limit of bucks is 3. There are state mandated antler restrictions in place. Blah Blah Blah .... and the cost to lease land in Alabama is "outrageous"!!! Thanks to the TV shows and DVD hunting movies, the cost to tag a BIG set of antlers is what has driven the cost up.
This is all anyone ever talks about anymore .... Booner Bucks, Stud Bucks, Swamp Donkey, Cactus Donkey, GIANT.

After hunting deer for almost 40 years I have arrived at this ....... When I have 5 minutes of life left in me, I will NOT be worried about who killed a button buck, or a jake turkey, or who killed the most or the biggest, or what the cost of gas r land is. What I will be thinking about is this - I wish I had more time to spend with my family and friends to go hunting and fishing.

Wow! ^^^^
Welcome , I think you're going to fit right in.

Manage our resources Cpiper is exactly what some people on this forum don't understand. Be ready to be called a liberal, micro manager, socialist, extremist, UN American and down right dumb ass for thinking that way.

I understand. I used to be one of the hunters whos only care and concern was "when does deer start and how many do I get to kill".
Then I grew up, Mentally and Emotionally. It took me a few years but I have grown to grasp that it is not all about me me me and what I want.

I shot my first deer at age 10 in Clarke County Alabama. I am stand up and show it off proud of that moment. It was not a giant buck. It was a buck, as in a male deer, but it did not have antlers. It was a button buck.
We were on a drive hunt and my dad was the next stander. He says he saw the deer coming and let it come on by him to give me a chance. I dont know if he did or not.
I remember seeing the deer. It was tip toeing along. I raised my Remington 870 Wingmaster. I had a 2 .75" shell it in loaded with 00buck. Next thing I knew the deer was on the ground kicking. I do not remember aiming. I do not remember the gun going off.
I start towards my first deer. I trip on a vine and fall. I look up at my prized kill and see it kicking and thrashing on the ground. The words of the "Old Timers" back at camp came to mind ..... "if it's still moving, get it another load of that buckshot". SO, laying there on my belly, I aim and fire another round. That load of buckshot hit all up in it's gut. I did not care. I had turned into a Deer Killer. No longer just a hunter, I was a killer.
We were hunting a piece of land right across the road from the camp. I drug the deer all the way back to camp all by myself. I hung it up. I skinned and gutted it, all by myself.
It was a BUCK deer. No antlers, but it was a MALE deer - BUCK. I was happy. I was proud. All of the folks in camp came around to pat me on the back and tell me words of "Good Going Son", or "Congratulations".
That was a great day. I remember all of the emotions from that day, and I can still feel them. That one single harvest fueled an already burning fire that rages out of control today, 39 years later.
Imagine that! All the time, money, energy, time, money, energy .... and over and over and over again, I have spent on deer and deer hunting stuff and things, started with the killing of a Button Buck!!

Last year, 2012, I overheard a man at the hunt club I was in say the following;
"Shooting a button buck is unethical"
WOW!!
What is next? Immoral?
The not so funny answer to that question is .... someone has probably already said that very thing.
What are WE HUNTERS coming to?? We fuss and fight over someone asking a question on an internet site?
I would think we hunters should be tripping over ourselves to help one another, find the answers to each other's questions, support and encourage one another.
Two rude and crude things have crept into Sport Hunting - Greed, Jealousy.
Selfish hunters who only know how to take more then they give. I think and feel the tide is turning, a little bit. If someone mentions taking a youth, female, or military person hunting, then YEHAW, YAHOO, we all fall in line and support that! But what about the common ole you and me? What about US? Why cant WE support each other?

Is the deer harvest declining because the deer population is declining?
Is the deer harvest declining because folks are practicing trigger restraint?
Surely, going to a 3 buck limit has not had that big of an impact on a 30%+ decline in the overall harvest has it?
Think about it folks, harvest trends typically follow population trends. Populations go up, harvests go up. Populations go down, harvests go down. Typically, On Average.

SO, why come no one answered my questions in my original post? No one has the answers? No one wants to know the answers?

Yep it will not be long before he is on 49er's ignore list too!

What I can't understand is why 49er isn't on everybody else's ignore list!

Well said. And in my opinion--and I realize everyone is getting tired of hearing this from me--the cause of this is the unrealistic expectations and false information being pounded into hunters heads by "Monster Buck" hunting shows on TV and the internet.

BSK........When we gather this statewide data....do we still need to know fawn recruitment rates? Will we measure that on a statewide or county wide level? It seems like with coyotes being such a big concern today that fawn recruitment would be one of the most important data points for us to know.....correct?

True, but there are still major differences (historically) b/w Al. and even Illinois...In Illinois
1. they have tags and out of state hunters have to put their name in to be drawn for a tag (never heard of a hunter not getting drawn, but it requires planning, money and time)
2. they can't hunt with rifles
3. archery tackle only during the rut, etc., etc.

My point is if Illinois had previously allowed a buck per day for 30+ years I don't think their hunting would be as good as it is today in areas where the state or private land owners didn't enforce their own regs. Imagine where their public land would be if you could have shot a buck per day. A buck limit sets a trend and mind set to let bucks walk and to be more choosy about what you kill. A buck a day sets the opposite mind set...no need to be choosy and if you don't kill your neighbors will, etc., etc.

Since Al. established this mind set for so long there are properties that were and still are pretty much ruined. They can come back and I believe our limit is going to help A LOT, but it will take time, especially for those places where clubs were killing anything with horns. All this leads to having major differences between two similar properties with in the same county and area. If the land owner never got involved and let the club follow state regs. and the club never cared enough to manage the land then land owner A is going to get $8 per acre while land owner B who enforced QDM will get $12 per acre, or more.

Just my opinion based on what I've seen in our area and even on my family's over the past 20 years.