Shooters, I will definitely look into the scope hour talking about, thanks

Atoler, i think you will like them! You can get a 4x16x60 thats non-illumanated for 550. An illumanated 4x16x50 for around 650. you mite like a 4x16x50 better than a 6x24x50, i guess it depends on your type off hunting. I have both 4x16x50 and 6x24x50 vortex viper pst. I have had good luck with them.

I'm not a "professional" on the subject by no means. I shoot 7mm mags. Have 2 of them. Older one is a Browning A-bolt stainless synthetic w/Boss with a Luepold 4.5-14x50 long range. Newer one is a Browning A-bolt blue synthetic with a Zeiss 3.5-10x56. The newer gun I bought for $500 at a pawn shop, looked brand new. Scope was $999 but you can get them now for $699. I shoot 154 gr Hornady. I let my oldest son take over the older gun. He killed his first deer hunting alone with it. 285 yards. This gun is amazing. Maybe I got lucky with a out of the box gun but it will shoot at longer distances. So $1200 range is possible.

Shooters,

You seem to have some experience with the Berger bullets because you mentioned them time and again in this thread.

Without using the term BC, why do you like them? Just curious.

I hope Shooters don't never get mad and want to shoot at me. I ain't sure how you could get far enough away from him to be safe.
I watched him shooting a man sized gong at a half mile the other day in high winds with a .223

Because they have the best tolorences of any hunting bullet. What i mean is when you measure a bullet from base to ojive, they have the best in the industry. Usually bergers are also the most consistent bullet per box. I have measured a whole box of 100 and th tolerence are 02 ths over the whole box. This means there all the same ojive. I have most ever bullet out their and berger flys the best to ME,or for me. I shoot bergers longrange, but for 300 yards and closer i shoot barnes X. Barnes X and bergers are my two favorites. Bergers kill well at longrange they basicly kill by scrapnel effect, i call it. Usually past 400 yards you want get a pass threw unless you use a 338 lapua, so the bergers kill well at longrange.Also the berger target bullets fly just like the berger hunting bullets, so you can pratice shooting with 1 and hunt with the other because they are identical. the only difference is the bullet jacket is harder on the OTM and target bullets as opposed to the elite hunting bullets

I agree. As for optics. Check on the Meopta Meostar line. Great glass and very reasonable. It's what I shoot. Second choice if you want a larger caliber would be my 7mm STW.

I will chime in here, the 7mm mag for me, mine was built by John Burns.I beleive the 7mm will out perform "most" (not all) common size rounds down range with the right hand load. for an all around gun you just cant beat it.
and I am biased to Johns "massaged" leupold scopes with his turrets
I have killed deer at 75 yds with it all the way out to an elk at 979 yds
the Berger "delayed grenade" planted then on the spot
I have 2 turrets for it just in case, one for hand loads, and one for factory schiroccos just in case the airlines "loses" my ammo
i dont think I have seen anyone mention "pinning" the bases and rings so they wont move, its a must For consitent accuracy.
a couple of thosanths of movement at 100 yds would probably never be noticed, at a 1,000 yds it might be a miss

Shooters,

I don't have as much experience as you do with the Bergers but what little I do have I was not impressed at all.

Granted, being a guide, I don't want an exploding bullet like a Berger or Ballistic tip etc.

Personally give me a Nosler, Grand Slam, Swift A-Frame type bullet. I have killed more than my share of critters over 500 yards and most all have been with either a Nosler type or a Spire Point of some type.

Also, I must mention that most of my hunting/guiding of critters is not on easy to kill soft critters such as a whitetail. Also, most of what I guide, I won't allow someone to hunt with an exploding bullet.

I have shot a few critters with Bergers and none of them died like I thought they should have, that's why I asked your opinion.

Big Game Hunter, you are correct i have not shot anything but whitetail deer with berger bullets. I guess controlled expansion is what berger calls it. It goes a few inchs in a whitetail and then srapnels down to 40 to 50 % bullet weight! I may have made it sound like a exploding ,scrapnel bullet but i have recovered afew bullets and they weight 40% or a little more. I understand you point though! I would say give Cutting Edge Bullets a try. They are pure copper just like barnes X, i have shot 260 in to sand at 100,200,300 yards and all bullets were 90% weight retention and almost 1 inch in diam. I just started late and didnt get them to shoot well in my 338 lapua. 300 otm bergers shot well at 500 = 5/8 moa. Cutting Edge shot 1 MOA at same , so i went with most accurate. This year i will be going back to the pure copper bullet to give it a retry!

Foodplotter2, please explain why pinning rings and bases is a must for accuracy? If you go to the top benchrest shots most people will be running Kelby ,Davidson, or Nightforce rings. I run Kelby on my benchrest guns and Nightforce on my f-class guns. We shoot Nightforce out to 2300 yards on 338 lapuas. I always check bases and rings with gunsmiths level their always true. I have had to <lap >several Leupold rings and base over the years thats and canted reticles, is why i stay away from Lepould! I have LOTS of rifles with PINNED recoil lugs but not pinned bases and rings. Im not trying to give you grief, i am just VERY intrested in hereing about PINNING rings and bases?

I have shot a 14.5 a lot and that was the only thing I've ever seen a pinned ring on other than an Airgun. Maybe I have seen others at Matches, but never noticed.

I need to turn you guys on to Burris Signature rings for Domestic use. That's the only thing I use and the only way to get it locked up any tighter is to welded it on there IMO. They are rock solid in all experience I have had with them. May not stand up to "tactical" use but I'm not "tacticool" like that. If I was running a course I might want some Nightforce rings or something. I have one set of Nightforce rings on a Nightforce and they are rock solid as well. Of course I haven't dropped my rifle off a cliff lately or anything to test them out, etc.

I never seen it or noticed it either at a match! I could have missed it as well. Just want to know what Pinning bases and rings are in the realm of accuracy? I run 80% of my guns with nightforce rings and bases . If PINNING is so great for accuracy im interested in hereing about it!! Goatkiller, i have never dropped 1 off a cliff but had 1 fall off of my 85 toyota went my girlfriend try to move the truck before i had everything gathered up!! Skinned the crap out of nightforce scope and mcree stock had to be re-painted but was dead on at 100 and remains GTG!

maybe its more of a sense of security
but when you lug a gun around for days beating it all to hell and back in hunting situations, it sure is nice to know that the only way it has moved is if you have sheared the pin, and if you have, its probably because you held onto it as you fell off a cliff, but you have bigger problems now, LOL
bench shooting is a much more controlled enviroment, for a hunting gun, I am going to pin it.
when you have tons of money tied up in a hunt, do you really want to blow a shot over a $50.00 gunsmith job??

Still dont under stand what you mean by Pinning rings and bases? What exactly are you going to pin and to what are you going to pin it to? What Pin are you talking about shearing? On the Base? On the rings?

drill through base and into the receiver (into, not through), drive-in pins, same with rigs.
I beleive 2 in the base and 1 in each ring, been a while, and i'm getting old and senile, LOL

Dayum! If y'all that worried about bumping a scope off, Honestly I'd be more worried about me falling off a cliff than my gun!!! Lol..Do what I do I keep one of the old model leupold scopesmiths with me. When I'm done sighting my rifles I always check it with Leopold & know exactly where my Cross hairs line up.. And I can check anytime I please....

I understand now! What you are describing is what most of us are already doing, just never called it PINNING. A nightforce 20 or 40 moa base has 8/40 screw in it . 2 of these screws go down in too the action, then tighten up! A picentany rail is what most of us bolt down in this manner. NIghtforce ring are then inserted threw the slots of picanteny rail and BAM! This is the same thing you are describing, your just calling it something else or your taking a regualr base and drill it to the recever. Doesnt you reciever already have holes in the top of the action? I have ran every custom action most people can think of at 1 time and cant remember 1 with out holes in the action?

screw holes are in the action from the factory, and we use them to clamp the base in addition to this
drilling new holes and inserting or driving a pin into it removes any chance of the base or rings "sliding", this is done between the facory threaded holes, normally an 1/8 drill and 1/8 harded pin about 3/8-1/2"long depending on the thickness of the material your are working with, the idea is to give the parts a "machined' fit, zero tolerance
the machine screws used to locate your base and rings are taperd head screws, they depend on the clamping force and the taper to locate and secure all the parts. however, the machine work to mass produce this stuff is not always the greatest, and there is some slack in the the fit of the tapered head and tapered receiving hole, even with the best locktite I have seen the screws loosen, heavy recoil can and will break even the red locktite.

I am not disputing or saying what anyone else is doing is wrong, just saying what we do.
I am sure some of you have looked down factory barrels and seen less than perfect lands, even chipped off pieces from dull machine tools, thats why most long range guys buy a custon barrels.
the same can be said for factory scope mounting pieces.
sometimes a little machine work to them will turn less than perfect pieces into sub moa tack drivers.

Just an FYI, I looked down 10 rem 700 barrels to find a good one, the others were good for closer shots and I would be ok owning any of them for deer hunting, but beyond say 500 yds, the chipped lands may have thrown off a shot.

the point is, a little extra work can make the differance between a wound and a kill at long range, I take that seriously, I don't want to wound game they deserve better, expecially over a $50.00 insurance policy